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Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

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41–50 of 57 posts

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#41
post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

>It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state.

I call BS. As far as welfare states go, the US has one of the smallest and less pervasive of any modern western country. Actually, it's like in that field you're living in the medieval ages.

A "welfare state" with your health system, close to a million people in the streets and tens of millions eating with coupons, is not a welfare state, it's a joke.

Nobody in his right mind would call your "food stamps" a welfare support that makes people "dependents".

We would actually think of it as an incompetent, half-arsed mockery of a welfare system... more like charity than welfare.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#42
post #14
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the US spends over half its budget on "defence" I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Maybe some numbers and a source?

Did you even read what you are replying to? He wasn't talking about the sum of money, just that it had gone up -- and he wasn't talking about how to finance it, just that it had caused more people to become dependent on assistance _even as more people are getting a job_. Meaning that it is not because there is no jobs.

>He wasn't talking about the sum of money, just that it had gone up -- and he wasn't talking about how to finance it, just that it had caused more people to become dependent on assistance

Yes, we was talking BS.

It makes one feel very superior and active, to believe that poor people, black, hispanic, etc choose to live on food stamps (as "dependents") ignoring all those fabulous job opportunities available to them.

That self-worth-boost is one of the main reasons people perpetuate this crap. Go talk to actual persons living on food stamps to get a real idea of what it's like and what chances the have to escape it.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#43
post #9

I think there is an ongoing obsession in this country to always live in fear and convince oneself that things are always at their worst and the bottom is always about to fall out at any moment. Maybe it's human nature. But I just don't buy this doom and gloom nonsense. Yes the economy is bad, there is no question about that, but the economy has been bad before. Probably the last comparable period was the late 70's. I…

One place where I wholly disagree with Chomsky is the unimportance of the deficit. That is a major, major problem. It is true that creating jobs would help shrink the deficit, but I think there is a lot of rampant spending by the U.S. government that does absolutely nothing to grow or maintain the economy or jobs and should be abolished. Take a step back and note that you don't actually point out or argue how the def…

Do you really need me to substantiate why it is bad to spend more money than you make? I guess I took for granted that the fundamental laws of economics were understood. I guess that was a mistake.

Everybody agrees that running a deficit is harmful. Most disagreement centers around which, if any, cuts in the budget should be made, and how much those cuts will hinder a recovery while the economy is still weak. The U.S. dollar is the worlds' reserve currency, and for that reason alone the U.S. is able to ignore a deficit for some time. But it is a huge mistake to get used to free money and not try to get finances in order. Greece made that mistake for many years and is now paying a huge price (along with the entire European Union).

National Parks are fine. They've been around a long time and that accounts for a rounding error of the federal budget. The greatest areas of concern are Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. Of course the defense budget is up there too, and I believe defense spending should be cut. The bottom line is that the Federal Government has grown by leaps and bounds over the past few decades and its addiction to rampant spending is making the country poor. You can debate about what should be cut but no increase in taxes is going to pay for this spending spree we are involved in right now. Greece was forced into draconian austerity measures when there were no other options on the table. I sure hope the U.S. learns something from that fiasco before it travels down the same road.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#44
post #38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per wiki Chomsky is a 'linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, historian, and activist.' I'm not sure how any of these qualify the man as someone to be listened on the topics of economics or manufacturing. asset rather than selling it because it fears an uprising of the working class is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. It does tell us that Chomsky has an especially stupid view of the world.

> I'm not sure how any of these qualify the man as someone to be listened on the topics of economics or manufacturing. Maybe because neither economics, nor manufacturing nor any other field, are fields to be left to the "experts", to the exclusion of the citizenry in general (economics especially, as a soft science that leaches on Math and thrives on state power, is full of idiotic experts, with Phds and Nobels to ma…

to the exclusion of the citizenry in general

If I'm sick, I want a doctor. If I want to know how to shoot pie-sized targets at 500 meters, I'll find a Marine.

Life in the 21st century is complicated, seeking opinions from people in a given field is required if one is to know one's [redacted] from a hole in the ground.

arguments are to be judged in themselves, not based on the expertise of who's making them.

Arguments are context-free? Okay.

Skimming the linked article I found the arguments themselves to be less than persuasive.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#45

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

>Aside from the fact that this story is clearly made-up, the idea that a profit-seeking corporation would favor "shutting down" an asset rather than selling it because it fears an uprising of the working class is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. Profit-seeking corporations aren't immune to stupidity and pettiness. Another reason not to sell it is to prevent the emergence of a competitor.

Case in point - Yahoo deciding to shut down del.icio.us - at the very least the brand name and bookmark list was worth something to someone... why shut it down?

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#46
post #26

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

Output is up, but employment is down in that same sector. You know why? Robots. Doesn't make the employment picture look any more rosy, in light of that increased output, does it? Chomsky's pretty ideological and I'd always take him with a grain of salt, but the manufacturing output doesn't really rebut his main point about industrialists no longer needing workers as much as they used to.

This book talks about the same thing - http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Work-Jeremy-Rifkin/dp/B000ILZ5...

output is consistently increasing, profits are consistently increasing - the only thing that is NOT increasing, is employment numbers. A big chunk of it is because of robots and automated systems.

huge population + huge unemployment = disaster

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#47
On one hand, I do feel like things are going fairly well compared historically, but it also, somehow, at the same time feels like everything is going wrong, and I'm not going to be able to have a job in my field very long, (retirement, what?), given outsourcing and companies moving jobs to whatever country has the cheapest labor this year.

I also feel like we, as a country (Canada), are going to lose a lot of expertise to outsourcing and multi-national job movement, ie. pay for the cheaper outsourcing in other ways later.

That said I am trying to do something about it by getting involved in the local startup community and try to create my own job, but that is quite difficult.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#48

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

I was going to add something similar. Chomsky and people like him pander to fear mongering about the 'loss of jobs' to a population of people who don't seem to understand that the number of jobs offered in this country has steadily and inexorably gone up. If technological progress was a net killer of jobs there would have been increasing unemployment from at least 1903 forward.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#49
post #9

I think there is an ongoing obsession in this country to always live in fear and convince oneself that things are always at their worst and the bottom is always about to fall out at any moment. Maybe it's human nature. But I just don't buy this doom and gloom nonsense. Yes the economy is bad, there is no question about that, but the economy has been bad before. Probably the last comparable period was the late 70's. I…

One place where I wholly disagree with Chomsky is the unimportance of the deficit. That is a major, major problem. It is true that creating jobs would help shrink the deficit, but I think there is a lot of rampant spending by the U.S. government that does absolutely nothing to grow or maintain the economy or jobs and should be abolished. Take a step back and note that you don't actually point out or argue how the def…

Upon reading this again I realize that you must not understand what a deficit is. A deficit occurs when you spend more than you make. It is the opposite of a surplus. If you earn $5,000 a month but spend $6,000 a month, you are running a deficit. The U.S. is doing this exact thing, but on a much larger scale.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#50
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One place where I wholly disagree with Chomsky is the unimportance of the deficit. That is a major, major problem. It is true that creating jobs would help shrink the deficit, but I think there is a lot of rampant spending by the U.S. government that does absolutely nothing to grow or maintain the economy or jobs and should be abolished. Take a step back and note that you don't actually point out or argue how the def…

Do you really need me to substantiate why it is bad to spend more money than you make? I guess I took for granted that the fundamental laws of economics were understood. I guess that was a mistake. Everybody agrees that running a deficit is harmful. Most disagreement centers around which, if any, cuts in the budget should be made, and how much those cuts will hinder a recovery while the economy is still weak. The U.S…

Once you understand sectoral balances [2], you realize that having a deficit tends to be beneficial. It is not clear how large this deficit has to be (and there are certainly times when a surplus makes sense, though those are very rare). It is clear that in the long run average you really need a budget deficit to have a well-functioning economy.

The reason behind that is actually fairly simple and comes from the sectoral balances, which state that the balances of all sectors in the economy have to add up to zero. So if the non-government sector has a surplus, the government sector must have a deficit, and vice versa.

Private actors like to hold monetary assets, i.e. savings, bonds, and so on. This means that somebody else must hold corresponding liabilities. Will the desire to hold liabilities balance the desire to hold assets within the private sector? This is unlikely at best. If there is no outside source of monetary assets, then those private actors who are successful at accumulating assets will force less successful private actors to go into debt until this debt is no longer sustainable.

The logical way out is for the government sector to provide the required monetary assets, which is only possible via a government deficit.

Even more so, given that nominal GDP will continue to rise by inflation + real growth of the economy, there must be a nominal government deficit. Otherwise, the value of private sector net assets must necessarily decrease over time relative to GDP, i.e. the private sector is squeezed out of its asset position. This wealth-squeezing is certainly going to be contractionary. [3]

Under the current institutional arrangement, an ongoing government deficit means increasing government debt [1]. However, unlike for private actors, there is no sustainability problem for a monetarily sovereign government (this is where your comparison with Greece breaks down - Greece is not monetarily sovereign).

If you are genuinely interested in the topic, you may want to read Bill Mitchell's Fiscal Sustainability 101 series, starting here: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=2905. His writing is not the most polished, but it's still probably the best analysis on the internet of what fiscal sustainability even means for a monetarily sovereign government.

[1] Alternative arrangements are possible, but unfortunately, they seem to be one of the taboos in our contemporary society.

[2] http://www.slideshare.net/MitchGreen/mmt-basics-you-cannot-c...

[3] The only way I see to reduce private sector assets without contractionary effects is to go to those assets directly, i.e. tax the wealthy. That does make sense for other reasons as well, such as the accumulation of wealth leading to accumulation of power mentioned in the article. However, taxing the wealthy is not something you can deduce from economics alone - there is always a choice.

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