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Visual design will not fix your broken business

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Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#41

Post by kelsokennedy »

I do agree to an extent, I believe that the biggest boost a start-up will see is from a first reaction/visual experience. If you can nail that on day one, I believe it will do more benefit than using a second rate/typical UI with brilliant code.

However it really depends on WHAT your product is, before you decide on how important the designers role will be.

Is this article focused on in-house/high end designer partner VS hiring a designer? Or is the other option sourcing to a design firm/agency?

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#42

Post by brudgers »

zachrose wrote: post #30
ams6110 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the first Mac was pretty gorgeous compared to something like an IBM PC or clone. A period where they did lose their elegance was when Jobs was in exile, they started looking like pretty ordinary (though still decent) PC systems.

Indeed: >> Esslinger convinced Jobs that zero-draft tooling was essential. As well as gaining a subtle but powerful precision to the shape of Apple's cases, it decreased their actual size. A zero-draft enclosure could fit more tightly around the components within, and, despite the tooling expense, the resulting decrease in plastic could eventually decrease costs. Moreover, zero-draft molding, being an unusual, comple…

That's not aesthetics.

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#43

Post by ISeemToBeAVerb »

This article offers little in the way of useful advice and seems to be a bit prejudicial toward designers in general.

A more useful topic would have been that design alone will not guarantee the success of your business.

The reality of the matter is that both design and engineering are critical aspects of your business in different ways.

Design IS important. Like it or not, the design of your website and your product screen-caps are the first thing any potential customer is going to see. A well designed brand does influence buying decisions, that's a fact.

Furthermore, users don't care about how well your code is written. The only contact they have with your code is through your UI. If the experience is not well designed, you're not really doing your job. Everything else being equal, a consumer is always going to choose software that is pleasant to use over software that is merely "functional".

That being said, once you entice users to try your product, the engineering better be solid.

So there you go, two important skills- both of which add to the value that you're (hopefully) offering to your customers.

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#44

Post by potatolicious »

> "Note: if you are a designer and you are at the point where you wish to get better at programming, read a book. Heck, read two. Now, you know more than enough to cope with most decisions you will encounter."

See how silly that sounds when you turn it around? Author seems to think that all it takes it a couple of books a bit of practice to become competent at design.

Sadly typical for engineers to hand-wave everything that isn't engineering away as a job easy enough for monkeys.

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#45

Post by sheldor »

potatolicious wrote: post #44

> "Note: if you are a designer and you are at the point where you wish to get better at programming , read a book. Heck, read two. Now, you know more than enough to cope with most decisions you will encounter." See how silly that sounds when you turn it around? Author seems to think that all it takes it a couple of books a bit of practice to become competent at design. Sadly typical for engineers to hand-wave everyth…

So true. We (engineers) most of the time miss the point in design, and think of it as a technical field which is so not true. It takes practice, a keen eye and lots of theory in order to be able to craft serious designs.

It's almost like saying "Buy a bunch of books, learn Autocad and you'll be an architect in no time"

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#46

Post by ISeemToBeAVerb »

sheldor wrote: post #45
potatolicious wrote: post #44

> "Note: if you are a designer and you are at the point where you wish to get better at programming , read a book. Heck, read two. Now, you know more than enough to cope with most decisions you will encounter." See how silly that sounds when you turn it around? Author seems to think that all it takes it a couple of books a bit of practice to become competent at design. Sadly typical for engineers to hand-wave everyth…

So true. We (engineers) most of the time miss the point in design, and think of it as a technical field which is so not true. It takes practice, a keen eye and lots of theory in order to be able to craft serious designs. It's almost like saying "Buy a bunch of books, learn Autocad and you'll be an architect in no time"

Exactly. It always amazes me that so many engineers dismiss attempting to learn about design. It amazes me because, in so many ways, engineering IS design. You can't really untangle the two. A well engineered application is a well designed one. They both inform and guide each other.

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#47

Post by jsavimbi »

geoffw8 wrote: post #24
jsavimbi wrote: post #11

> In my experience Only a fool would pretend to be blissfully unaware of what he's talking about and then offer you advice on the very subject of his ignorance.

I'm not sure "In my experience" suggests the OP is unaware of what he's talking about, in fact, quite the opposite.

The mere fact that OP is still wasting time debating the merits of investing in engineering over design is a dead giveaway that he has not a clue. The debate has been dead for quite some time now.

Let me clarify this for those not in the know:

Unless you're in the business of selling design services, under no circumstances should you ever hire a full-time staff designer, never mind considering them for an equity-sharing position at the outset of your enterprise.

If one doesn't know what should and shouldn't be hired for in the early stage startup, one shouldn't be wasting their time pontificating about it. OP is a moron.

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#48

Post by tptacek »

potatolicious wrote: post #44

> "Note: if you are a designer and you are at the point where you wish to get better at programming , read a book. Heck, read two. Now, you know more than enough to cope with most decisions you will encounter." See how silly that sounds when you turn it around? Author seems to think that all it takes it a couple of books a bit of practice to become competent at design. Sadly typical for engineers to hand-wave everyth…

Just to be the devil's advocate here:

A designer who reads a couple books about programming is somewhat less likely to generate a lot of value for customers than a developer who reads a couple books about design. Success or failure in many (maybe most?) markets is much more sensitive to engineering talent than design talent.

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#49

Post by tg3 »

tptacek wrote: post #48
potatolicious wrote: post #44

> "Note: if you are a designer and you are at the point where you wish to get better at programming , read a book. Heck, read two. Now, you know more than enough to cope with most decisions you will encounter." See how silly that sounds when you turn it around? Author seems to think that all it takes it a couple of books a bit of practice to become competent at design. Sadly typical for engineers to hand-wave everyth…

Just to be the devil's advocate here: A designer who reads a couple books about programming is somewhat less likely to generate a lot of value for customers than a developer who reads a couple books about design. Success or failure in many (maybe most?) markets is much more sensitive to engineering talent than design talent.

"is somewhat less likely to generate a lot of value for customers" - based on what exactly? This sounds very arbitrary and you don't cite any reasons for this belief.

"success...is much more sensitive to engineering talent" - again, is that a fact? what is that assertion based on?

Re: Visual design will not fix your broken business

#50

Post by tptacek »

tg3 wrote: post #49
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be the devil's advocate here: A designer who reads a couple books about programming is somewhat less likely to generate a lot of value for customers than a developer who reads a couple books about design. Success or failure in many (maybe most?) markets is much more sensitive to engineering talent than design talent.

"is somewhat less likely to generate a lot of value for customers" - based on what exactly? This sounds very arbitrary and you don't cite any reasons for this belief. "success...is much more sensitive to engineering talent" - again, is that a fact? what is that assertion based on?

Part of it is common sense. Plenty of ugly working apps do fine in the market. Apps that don't work at all don't ever do fine.

Part of it is long-term experience. My field is dominated by products that sell to businesses; they have universally terrible UIs, many of which wouldn't have passed muster in 1999.

Part of it is direct, current, ongoing experience: we sell security engineering services to application providers, and so my working weeks consist of looking at other people's applications --- in fact, of looking at successful applications, because nobody spends 5 figures on security assessment if their app isn't doing well. Most of the applications we see look worse and are less useable than Themeforest templates.

Part of it is friends, who have launched products on templates instead of professional designs, who have done fine and not observed any objection to their application's lack of a vertical baseline typographic grid or the correct noise texture in the background or the color-theoretic implications of their button colors. Again: launched on templates, did fine.

HN overvalues design expertise. For most of the businesses started by people on HN, from weather tracking to fraud prediction to appointment reminding to credit card processing, a unique design tailored to the company's exact business is not a real requirement. In many cases, custom designs are mostly about vanity.

I'm not bagging on designers. My sense is that for the subset of designers who are actually both talented and competent consultants, there is too much work, not too little. I admire and can geek out about graphic design and UX. I wish designers the best.

But: design is one of those things that keeps people from shipping their apps, or sometimes even from starting on it. The belief that a poorly designed rev1 app will destroy the prospects of a new business has harmed more startups than inadequate design ever will. Unrealistic and frankly pointless expectations about bespoke design are a mental obstacle to getting shit done. So I think it's worth pointing out how overvalued design is, repeatedly and at length.

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