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Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

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41–50 of 236 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#41

When has UBI actually every been tried? I don't think any trials really qualify as "Universal". IMO the universal part is the hard part and changes it drastically. Compared to a small limited trial of giving people money, where does it all come from when it's actually universal? And what are the effects on the overall economy when it's universal?

This is a good point, although all of the trials I can think of have had some element of reducing the means-testing, or reducing criteria for inclusion, which I think is valuable in testing the UBI concept.

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#42
post #2

I don't think anyone is doubting that giving people money improves their lives. That seems to be the conclusion of these studies. However what is seemingly _never_ studied is how to finance such an operation. The money has to come out of the system somewhere. Is it with new taxation on XYZ, or slashing services somewhere else etc.

Also, I'm curious about the tipping point from local basic income, to universal basic income. How is that not just asking for inflation?

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#43

[flagged]

The real problem here is that we expect an individual to operate on the same footing as a firm. The firm can use its army of people to devise new ways to bamboozle the individual, but the individual has only their wits and their free time to use to defend themselves. The only way to protect yourself as an individual is collective action.

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#44

In the US, we gave money to people during the pandemic. Worker shortages in low-skill labor resulted and inflation hit 10%. I think that's the major flaw - young, childless people without responsibility see no reason to work, when they can watch Netflix all day, either paying their mom some token rent or sharing a flop house with a bunch of friends.

[dead]

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#45
Yes, of course giving people money makes their lives better. It especially works when a very small subset of the population receives such treatment, such that their relative income is higher than those outside the experiment.

The issue with UBI is that enacting it at scale has two huge problems:

1. Financing it. These programs are monumentally expensive. You need to get the money from somewhere. The easiest place to take it is via the money printer and the second is from the rich.

If you do it via the money printer, it's a self-own in terms of inflationary impact.

If you do it by taxing the rich, you wind up hobbling and punishing your most productive citizens. Look at China's economic situation right now to see how ultimately unproductive that can be.

2. Diminishing effects. A bit more money is great when everybody else in your local economy didn't get it. But when everybody gets it, things just become more expensive.

The USA did this during the COVID era. We basically implemented UBI. We expanded the M1 money supply from $4T to $18T and largely handed it out in a diffuse way. For the first 6 months it was awesome. And then shortages started spiking and inflation started creeping in. We ultimately had to roll it back.

I don't think these problems are fundamentally solvable.

Instead, we should foster competition, incentivize innovation, and let markets do their thing. This will create lower prices for basic goods and create employment opportunities so people can have what they need for cheap, under the financing of their own effort.

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or slashing services somewhere else Military budget?

Military is actually a big jobs program itself, both for people directly employed by the military as well as for industrial contractors.

Any sufficiently large purchase is indistinguishable from a jobs program.

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#47
post #2

I don't think anyone is doubting that giving people money improves their lives. That seems to be the conclusion of these studies. However what is seemingly _never_ studied is how to finance such an operation. The money has to come out of the system somewhere. Is it with new taxation on XYZ, or slashing services somewhere else etc.

> The money has to come out of the system somewhere. Governments have the ability to print money out of thin air. What I'd like to see is how UBI impacts inflation and economic growth.

The folks down-voting you down appear to have no problems with hundreds of billions of dollars spent on War every year - the money for that was printed out of thin air. The current U.S. Biden administration even removed the debt ceiling to do this!

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#48

In the US, we gave money to people during the pandemic. Worker shortages in low-skill labor resulted and inflation hit 10%. I think that's the major flaw - young, childless people without responsibility see no reason to work, when they can watch Netflix all day, either paying their mom some token rent or sharing a flop house with a bunch of friends.

> Fears that the experiment would engender laziness in participants were not borne out in the project’s findings: “The ‘laziness’ contention is just not supported by our findings,” the chief data analyst of one of the experiments said. “There is not anywhere near the mass defection the prophets of doom predicted.”

We already did the experiment, across the whole country!

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money isn't zero sum. We've never let such concerns interfere with funding wars.

This isn’t an argument. What do you say to someone who doesn’t think ubi will scale and who is also anti war?

Just declare a war on needless bureaucracy or something. No need for actual violence.

Re: Universal Basic Income Has Been Tried over and over Again. It Works Every Time

#50
post #4
post #2

I don't think anyone is doubting that giving people money improves their lives. That seems to be the conclusion of these studies. However what is seemingly _never_ studied is how to finance such an operation. The money has to come out of the system somewhere. Is it with new taxation on XYZ, or slashing services somewhere else etc.

Or how increasing the money supply affects the price of eggs...

Considering the price of eggs skyrocketed due to an outbreak of avian flu forcing farmers into mass culling tens of millions of egg laying hens across the US, it's probably not the money supply that caused that.
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