It seems completely insane to have a jury of random people decide these kind of technical questions.
Suggest an alternative?
Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
41–50 of 55 posts
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#42Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#43From the comments: The form says only to answer 4 if they answered YES to 1A, Google _has_ infringed the SSO Having a Jury with no technical knowledge would obviously lead to this.
Having a Jury would obviously lead to this. Not meaning to offend anyone but; to me a jury system is the most backward way of justice. Simply grab a random group of people of the street to essentially make life impacting decisions based on the theatrical performance of a lawyer. It's like saying; Hey guys, we're short on brain surgeons, we're going to introduce brain surgeon duty. Everyone can cut meat, right?
Have you ever been on a jury? I kinda thought that way too, then I served as a juror for a serious criminal case. I was very impressed with the result of the selection process (nice mix of race/gender/class that pretty accurately represents the city) and the seriousness with which nearly all the jurors took their task. People really wanted to get it right.
Just one data point, but I believe there are studies to back this up -- people have far more confidence in the jury system if they have been on a jury.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#44Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
They give the jury very detailed guidance, in layman's terms, for each question. The jury is not being asked to use any technical expertise--they're being asked to judge the credibility of the experts who have presented each side's evidence.
It's like asking a dozen parakeets which of the two nuclear physicist in the room is right about string theory. I fail to see how their opinion can be relevant.
Programming isn't nuclear physics and juries aren't parakeets. And you're not asking juries broad questions like "who is right about string theory?" you're asking them very pointed questions like "did X present sufficient evidence to show that Y is true?" Even in a technical trial, you're not asking the jury technical questions like whether some code implements quick-sort or bubble sort. The law by and large doesn't deal in those sorts of questions and as a result those questions don't get posed to the jury.
Look at the questions posted: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120504153813681
"B. Has Google proven that its use of Oracle’s Java documentation constituted “fair use”?"
The judge will explain in detail what "fair use" means according to the law. The factors of fair use are something like this:
1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
An average person can evaluate whether Google's use of Oracle's documentation was commercial or educational. They can be made to understand the difference between documentation and actual code that makes a product work. They can be made to understand the difference between a few lines of code and a program containing millions of lines. They can hear evidence from experts about the potential impact of the use and decide who they find more credible.
It's not like on TV where there is a "guilty/non-guilty" verdict. The juries are asked very specific things that are expected to be within the range of comprehension of an ordinary person.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
They can ask me. I'd do it.
In most places you can volunteer for jury duty.... go nuts! ('fraid you can't pick your cases though)
My brother was actually on the Microsoft-Novell trial jury. Sounded both interesting and terrible. He really resented that the whole thing just ended up being a waste of time for him.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having a Jury would obviously lead to this. Not meaning to offend anyone but; to me a jury system is the most backward way of justice. Simply grab a random group of people of the street to essentially make life impacting decisions based on the theatrical performance of a lawyer. It's like saying; Hey guys, we're short on brain surgeons, we're going to introduce brain surgeon duty. Everyone can cut meat, right?
Have you ever been on a jury? I kinda thought that way too, then I served as a juror for a serious criminal case. I was very impressed with the result of the selection process (nice mix of race/gender/class that pretty accurately represents the city) and the seriousness with which nearly all the jurors took their task. People really wanted to get it right. Just one data point, but I believe there are studies to back…
Recent juror here on a serious criminal case, and I feel absolutely the same way.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
How so? Any jury, technical or not, should find 1A for Oracle. "Has Oracle proven that Google has infringed the overall structure, sequence and organization of copyrighted works?" As far as I can tell nobody disputes that Google lifted the Java API's structure, sequence, and organization from Sun, and the judge told them to consider SSO copyrightable. Most programmers think it's ok to rip off an API because otherwise…
I don't think the world would burn if APIs were copyrighted. There are 'fair use' provisions and most companies would grant carte blanche to people to provide new implementations. I am actually struggling to think of an example other than Java.
SCO/Calderra would have loved to be able to claim ownership of libc for all *nix OSes. That's the kind of thing this case could be moving towards. Im sure somebody would love their tithes for SQL, too.
It could get very ugly.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having a Jury would obviously lead to this. Not meaning to offend anyone but; to me a jury system is the most backward way of justice. Simply grab a random group of people of the street to essentially make life impacting decisions based on the theatrical performance of a lawyer. It's like saying; Hey guys, we're short on brain surgeons, we're going to introduce brain surgeon duty. Everyone can cut meat, right?
Have you ever been on a jury? I kinda thought that way too, then I served as a juror for a serious criminal case. I was very impressed with the result of the selection process (nice mix of race/gender/class that pretty accurately represents the city) and the seriousness with which nearly all the jurors took their task. People really wanted to get it right. Just one data point, but I believe there are studies to back…
Maybe criminal cases are different. I was a juror recently for a civil case, and while I agree the jurors took their task seriously, most of them lacked the analytic intelligence required to rationally weigh the evidence. It came down to whose lawyers told the more emotionally compelling story.
The whole experience left me with much less faith in the jury system.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one
#50so who will likely to win ?