Live data from Hacker News

Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

independent.co.uk

41–50 of 118 posts

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#41
post #25

Isn't there a better article? - 2 MW of energy MW is a unit of power not energy, maybe they mean 2 MWh, but if that's the case, it is a joke. That's like 30 Teslas cars, or half of a Tesla Megapack, which is a shipping container sized battery. 2 MW of power is not that big either, that's about what you get from a typical wind turbine. - 70TWh of energy At least, we have a proper unit, but I wish they tell us a bit mo…

Part of me certainly hated myself for not stopping to read right there.

But it's an interesting approach despite the bad writing: if you fill a 1400m shaft with a dense chain of buckets (my term, they seem to call them vessels) you'll need a surprising low amount of mass throughput for a given amount of power flowing in/out. Because there is just so much in transit at any given point in time.

A naive implementation would quickly run into limits in rope strength and the like, but the schematic drawing suggests that the system they suggest consists of a chain of shorter loops, each just carrying whatever low number of vessels is easiest to engineer, and handing them over bucket-brigade style. This sounds complicated, but a similar thing is routinely done by gondola lifts with intermediate stations between separate wire loops (but here, handover could presumably be done simpler and in less maintenance-demanding ways because latency is no goal at all). So you'd design a system that works for three loops in a shaft not much deeper than a deep cellar and then scale it out to a very deep mine.

The power in/out is simply the throughput of a single stage times how many of those stages can be stacked in the shaft (or rather: hung to the sides of the shaft on top of each other, they'd certainly not be stacked in the statical sense). And if your battery is ever considered full but you still have extra energy to store, you could always decide to dig more horizontal tunnel, like when the mine was still serving it's original purpose. All you need is room (and transportation) for a larger spoil heap in the sun.

Digression: it's hot down there. Could you, with sufficiently insulated pipes, spin up a geothermally powered loop of air where the hot air carries moisture up skyside? If the sand is drier on the way up than it was on the way down while discharging you could theoretically end up with efficiency > 100. (in reality, more energy will certainly be lost to uninvited water finding it's way down, but perhaps this geothermal harvest could help battle the losses to water ingress)

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#42

I admit in the past I've been skeptical about the use of gravity batteries when they involved things like towers and stacking large weights as their energy density is relatively quite low, but this seems like it makes a ton of sense. That is: 1. The shaft is already dug, so no need to build a tower. 2. As the article points out, many/most of these sites are already well-connected to the grid. 3. Also as pointed out i…

A gravity battery doesn't need a well or a tower. The slope of a hill will do. More or less put railroad tracks up the slope, and have the "car" winched up and down. Just like the ratcheting trolleys that go up and down hills.

There was recently an article here about an electric truck that never needs charging. It drives up a hill, collects a load of rock from the mine there, and by the time it has driven back down with the heavy load, regenerative breaking has recharged the battery.

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#43
I’m sceptical about this technology, but it seems it is a lot lower cost than batteries (they claim a plant can last 50+ years with 50k+ cycles), can provide bursts of power, and can offset the decommissioning cost of mines.

A slightly better article: https://eepower.com/news/gravity-energy-storage-systems-tran...

The company: https://gravitricity.com/

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised how few sites are suitable for pumped hydro and how costly it is to build. I can easily see this being both cheaper and more efficient. Most pumped hydro installations outside of northern Europe end up requiring large dams to create a big enough impoundment uphill. A direct weight solution should have better conversion efficiency as well, Gravitricity quotes 80% which is on the high end of pump…

You might be surprised at the enormous numbers of sites that are potentially suitable for pumped hydro, if you go looking for them in areas with vertical relief. https://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ "ANU has identified 616,000 potential sites around the world." (note that not all countries are included in this because of lack of geographical elevation data) A place like Nevada has an enormous surfeit of opportunities…

More holes than we have fresh water to fill them with. Maybe someone will solve corrosion and we can use salt water.

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#45
post #17
post #4

It will be interesting to see how much net energy is able to be stored after the energy cost of de-watering the mine is taken into account. (An interesting tidbit of trivia I learned from miners is that deep underground mines only became feasible after reliable pumping was put in place.[1] Prior to that, they flooded out from groundwater intrusion.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooded_mine Edited to add the wik…

Depends on base depth and water table - It's 1.4 km "deep" from the head .. which might be 2.5 km above sea level in Finland (what with all the steep bits and everything). If the bottom is well above sea level and not in line of any underground rivers | streams | lakes it'll stay relatively dry. For interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyh%C3%A4salmi_Mine The "main level" of the mine is at 1400 meters depth and ca…

>which might be 2.5 km above sea level in Finland (what with all the steep bits and everything).

Steep bits? Are you thinking of Norway :-) there’s no steep bits in Finland, highest point above sea level is 1324M!

There was even a Norwegian campaign to gift a mountain for its birthday https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37662811

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised how few sites are suitable for pumped hydro and how costly it is to build. I can easily see this being both cheaper and more efficient. Most pumped hydro installations outside of northern Europe end up requiring large dams to create a big enough impoundment uphill. A direct weight solution should have better conversion efficiency as well, Gravitricity quotes 80% which is on the high end of pump…

You might be surprised at the enormous numbers of sites that are potentially suitable for pumped hydro, if you go looking for them in areas with vertical relief. https://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ "ANU has identified 616,000 potential sites around the world." (note that not all countries are included in this because of lack of geographical elevation data) A place like Nevada has an enormous surfeit of opportunities…

Your second link describes itself as "a 1,000 megawatt energy storage project".

I'm interested in how much energy the site can store, about which there is no indication on that page. Do you think maybe they mean 1,000 megawatt hour?

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#47
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link: > The alternative idea is to put a lot of sand on a single elevator with huge winches that just goes up and down in a big, deep mine shaft. This one at least has the potential to be viable.

Did you read the part immediately after that?

Yeah I did. He immediately dismisses the prospect, cuts the size of everything in half with a glorious hand wave, and then explains how that's not enough.

I don't think it's viable either FYI. Just pointing out your rebuke acknowledges the feasibility.

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frustrating, every article just repeats "2MW capacity." Gravitricity hasn't announced this project themselves yet, hopefully when they do they give the actual storage capacity. But I think 2MWh might be correct - in press elsewhere Gravitricity says 500t over 800m produces 1MWh. This is a deeper depth but not that much, and this is very much an experimental project so I think they might be sticking to 500-750t m…

It’s a sad reality now, 1Mwh is sloppily called “1MW” when it’s about energy, but “1MW” when it’s about power. It’s just like the ship sailed on 1 kilocalorie.m being called “one calorie” I think we can give up on this one as well.

No. Never.

kcal and cal atleast is the same unit.

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#49
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on base depth and water table - It's 1.4 km "deep" from the head .. which might be 2.5 km above sea level in Finland (what with all the steep bits and everything). If the bottom is well above sea level and not in line of any underground rivers | streams | lakes it'll stay relatively dry. For interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyh%C3%A4salmi_Mine The "main level" of the mine is at 1400 meters depth and ca…

>which might be 2.5 km above sea level in Finland (what with all the steep bits and everything). Steep bits? Are you thinking of Norway :-) there’s no steep bits in Finland, highest point above sea level is 1324M! There was even a Norwegian campaign to gift a mountain for its birthday https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37662811

The bloody cheek of those Norwegians!!

It's all relative - I live in a state 3x bigger than Texas and the highest point is only 1248m .. when I visited (man years ago) lot's of places in Finland looked steeper than here.

Re: Europe's deepest mine to become giant gravity battery

#50
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to support the completely unsupported naysaying: https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/16/gravity-storage-101-or-... Cliff's Notes: any currently-considered form of gravity storage that isn't pumped hydro is orders of magnitude more expensive and more stupid than a Tesla Megapack. Michael Barnard's abrasive tone aside, is he wrong?

had to look up some price comparisons. Fengning Pumped Storage Power Station stores 40 GWh and cost 2 billion or 20 Wh/USD Tesla megapack 2 stores 3.8 Mwh = Costs 1.5 million, or approximately 2.6 Wh/USD It seems like pumped hydro is about an order of magnitude cheaper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengning_Pumped_Storage_Power_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack

That wasn’t the comparison. The comparison was every form of pumped storage EXCEPT pumped hydro vs a megapack. I’m sure you’re correct about pumped hydro though, it does seem like something we should do more of.
Post reply on HN