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Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

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Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#41

Post by colinmorelli »

jasode wrote: post #34
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it need only be information that is material and non-public. I think this is wrong as well. Suppose you are a independent technician repairing cars. Over time you notice, that, say BMW car quality used to be good but has gone to shit. That's not public information, but you would be allowed to short BMW stock in the hopes that, once public catches on, their share price will tank. In fact half the point of stock trad…

>I think this is wrong as well. The gp's wording is a little confusing but he's just trying to explain the transitive logic of non-public information transferring from a "true insider" to an outsider is also "insider trading" and thus illegal. Think of it as the provenance of information coming from an insider. E.g. Martha Stewart is an "outsider" and not an insider of drug company ImClone but she was found guilty of…

Slightly clarified my comment via a parenthetical. "Non-public" in this context refers to information which would only be available to those with a fiduciary responsibility and/or a confidentiality obligation to the organization.

I was trying to avoid the use of "insider," because people tend to assume that means employees or directors, but that is not the case. Outside organizations who have, as an example, signed an NDA with the organization may learn of material non-public information, and trading on that could constitute insider trading.

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#42

Post by ipaddr »

jasode wrote: post #34
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it need only be information that is material and non-public. I think this is wrong as well. Suppose you are a independent technician repairing cars. Over time you notice, that, say BMW car quality used to be good but has gone to shit. That's not public information, but you would be allowed to short BMW stock in the hopes that, once public catches on, their share price will tank. In fact half the point of stock trad…

>I think this is wrong as well. The gp's wording is a little confusing but he's just trying to explain the transitive logic of non-public information transferring from a "true insider" to an outsider is also "insider trading" and thus illegal. Think of it as the provenance of information coming from an insider. E.g. Martha Stewart is an "outsider" and not an insider of drug company ImClone but she was found guilty of…

If she put it on twitter could she legally trade on the tip? If I saw the tweet and trade is that legal?

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#43

Post by filoleg »

philwelch wrote: post #17

This is a good opportunity to point out that insider trading is a victimless crime. If you sell stock with insider knowledge, you sell it to someone who would have happily bought it at the same price or possibly a higher price from someone else anyway. The same is true if you buy stock with insider knowledge. The only net effect of insider trading is to make the market more efficient by pricing in otherwise inaccessi…

> This is a good opportunity to point out that insider trading is a victimless crime.

It is a "victimless crime" in the same sense as selling someone a house is, fully knowing that a pipe in the basement is going to burst 6-12 months later and not disclosing it to the buyer (which would've made the house value go down, if the buyer knew it).

That "someone who would have happily bought it at the same price or possibly a higher price" is someone who wouldn't have done it, knowing what the insider knows, they would've waited. And the same is true for "insider knowledge that is related to something good about the company that's going to happen soon and pump the share price", you wouldn't sell your shares for as cheap as they are if you knew what the insider knows.

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#44

Post by injb »

jasode wrote: post #34
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it need only be information that is material and non-public. I think this is wrong as well. Suppose you are a independent technician repairing cars. Over time you notice, that, say BMW car quality used to be good but has gone to shit. That's not public information, but you would be allowed to short BMW stock in the hopes that, once public catches on, their share price will tank. In fact half the point of stock trad…

>I think this is wrong as well. The gp's wording is a little confusing but he's just trying to explain the transitive logic of non-public information transferring from a "true insider" to an outsider is also "insider trading" and thus illegal. Think of it as the provenance of information coming from an insider. E.g. Martha Stewart is an "outsider" and not an insider of drug company ImClone but she was found guilty of…

>> Martha Stewart is an "outsider" and not an insider of drug company ImClone but she was found guilty of insider trading

Minor correction: she was not convicted of insider trading. That charge was dismissed. She was only convicted of lying to investigators.

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#46

Post by filoleg »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #29
philwelch wrote: post #17

This is a good opportunity to point out that insider trading is a victimless crime. If you sell stock with insider knowledge, you sell it to someone who would have happily bought it at the same price or possibly a higher price from someone else anyway. The same is true if you buy stock with insider knowledge. The only net effect of insider trading is to make the market more efficient by pricing in otherwise inaccessi…

If I work for Apple and I'm on the special secret new Apple Glasses project, I reasonably know that when the product is announced the stock is going to go up. That information belongs to Apple, not me. Apple could sell more shares to capitalize on the announcement. By buying shares before the announcement, I'm capturing some of the gain that should be Apple's.

That's why companies like Apple have very strongly enforced rules related to this for their employees, like blackout windows on trading AAPL shares and not allowing them trading AAPL shares at all. And there are even more restrictions for those working on certain teams and in certain areas (e.g., finance/accounting). Buying/selling right before the big announcement or earnings reports is straight up not allowed.

I don't know the actual dates for Apple (as I only have friends working there, I haven't worked there myself, and I didn't quite care to ask for the exact length of trading blackout windows). But I know for a fact myself that at Google you get a trading blackout window that starts around 3-4 weeks before the quarterly earnings announcements and ends around a week or so after. And you are not allowed to trade GOOG options at all while an emlpoyee, not even outside of those trading blackout windows. There are additional blackout windows as well, but that's beside the point, and I don't remember them off the top of my head. And that's just for a run-off-the-mill software engineer working on an internal infra product that isn't some super-top-secret thing.

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#48

Post by mathiasgredal »

pavlov wrote: post #37

Is it insider trading if you sold Microsoft stock short because Windows gave you a BSOD? Clearly not. The question is only raised because airplane failures are much more rare than software failures.

Well, if I found an unpatchable zero-click RCE exploit on an iPhone, then that would have a major effect on the stockprice when the news is announced. It definitely seems like it would be insider trading if i used that knowledge to do options trading.

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#49

Post by Ekaros »

ghaff wrote: post #4

IANAL, but I don't see how. If you're just an ordinary person, you're trading based on an event you witnessed in the course of going about your life. No different I would think than if you witnessed a plane crash. You might be investigated though if the amounts were large enough. It gets much more complicated I would think if you were an air traffic controller or otherwise learned about it in a professional capacity.

Like if you were mechanic for the airline and got message that we will be landing with missing door. And then traded stock of airline on that information.

Being in the crew of the plane might get more messy at least when done with airline. Boeing less so.

Re: Is it insider trading if I bought Boeing puts while inside the wrecked airplane?

#50

Post by raverbashing »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #24
colinmorelli wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Important clarification: you do not need to have confidentiality obligations with respect to the information or a fiduciary relationship, it need only be information that is material and non-public information that belongs to the company (i.e. only available to those with a fiduciary responsibility or confidentiality obligation to the company). If an insider with confidentiality obligations shares material non-public…

> it need only be information that is material and non-public. I think this is wrong as well. Suppose you are a independent technician repairing cars. Over time you notice, that, say BMW car quality used to be good but has gone to shit. That's not public information, but you would be allowed to short BMW stock in the hopes that, once public catches on, their share price will tank. In fact half the point of stock trad…

This is not "non public" information and to be honest it might not even be material

"Non public" usually means an information that's internal to the company, not necessarily something that can't be gathered independently

Google's menu for the week in their offices is "non public" but not material information

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