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NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

nytimes.com

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Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#41

Post by jdougan »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #39
legitster wrote: post #8

I'm trying to think through this from a legal perspective. If I'm going from store-to-store around town, my understanding is that police are allowed to watch me and even go into the businesses and ask questions or pull security footage without a warrant. The information they gather is circumstantial and probably would not hold up in court, but they can use it as grounds to get a warrant. Let's imagine a different cas…

You're talking about police, but the NSA has a charter and in that charter is supposed to (for SIGINT : signals intelligence, i.e., gathering) be doing signals gathering outside the US on at least one end of conversations. Perhaps something changed over the last 20 years. But perhaps the rule still applies (or is supposed to apply) and that's the implied misbehavior.

They aren't allowed to collect the data directly...so they have the other UKUSA/5eyes do it for them with what used to be call ECHELON. There are supposed to be restrictions on that but it is hard to tell from the outside.

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#42

Post by crimmin »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #39
legitster wrote: post #8

I'm trying to think through this from a legal perspective. If I'm going from store-to-store around town, my understanding is that police are allowed to watch me and even go into the businesses and ask questions or pull security footage without a warrant. The information they gather is circumstantial and probably would not hold up in court, but they can use it as grounds to get a warrant. Let's imagine a different cas…

You're talking about police, but the NSA has a charter and in that charter is supposed to (for SIGINT : signals intelligence, i.e., gathering) be doing signals gathering outside the US on at least one end of conversations. Perhaps something changed over the last 20 years. But perhaps the rule still applies (or is supposed to apply) and that's the implied misbehavior.

You aren't wrong but the misuse is within the bounds of what you are saying. They only need to make a reasonable effort to avoid directly surveilling conversations between two Americans if there's evidence available they are both Americans. They collect until they realize both parties are American and from what I understand those communications after the realization are not purged.

Additionally if you are speaking with foreigners they are also authorized to collect. The idea is that they can only use it for intelligence purposes but those data sets including domestic communications which were collected 'by accident' are exposed to the FBI for counter intelligence reasons. The problem is that the FBI has notoriously abused this and run searches against the database for domestic individuals for reasons other than counter intelligence.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/04/internal-documents-sho...

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#44

Post by verisimi »

127361 wrote: post #31
mu53 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this gets down to a fundamental problem with tech that society is ignoring like a pink elephant in the room. Society fundamentally changed with the introduction of computers. Things have become possible that were never possible before. This is obvious if you consider the tech of 1900, 1950, and today. The elephant in the room is that the more complete the dataset the more dangerous it is. Its like gunpowder.…

There's the chilling effect, people not wanting to protest or organize against government overreach for fear of being put on a watch list. This allows the state to enact more draconian laws with less push back from the general public. It's like a vicious circle that feeds itself, the more surveillance the government permits, the less the public are able to complain or fight back against it. Thus leading to even worse…

You are talking about the panopticon, where, in the perfect jail, anyone can be looked at but they themselves have no awareness of that fact. This changes behaviour. The implementation of technology we have is the panopticon across the whole of society. This is not accidental, it is part of the governance control system.

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#45

Post by edgyquant »

happytiger wrote: post #18
edgyquant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fourth amendment is not about buying things everyone else is able to buy

You should consider reading the article.

You should consider reading the rules

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#46

Post by hulitu »

> NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

I really hate to take NSA part on this, but, if the data is available on the open market, why would they need a warrant.

The problem is not that NSA buy it (they have access to it anyway, through other means) the problem is that everyone can buy it.

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#47

Post by verisimi »

luckettpat wrote: post #21
legitster wrote: post #8

I'm trying to think through this from a legal perspective. If I'm going from store-to-store around town, my understanding is that police are allowed to watch me and even go into the businesses and ask questions or pull security footage without a warrant. The information they gather is circumstantial and probably would not hold up in court, but they can use it as grounds to get a warrant. Let's imagine a different cas…

I think it comes down to quantitative differences resulting in qualitative differences. It's not unreasonable for anyone (public or police) to notice when I am out in public, and what I do in public. But at some point an accumulation of these OK interaction becomes not OK, in the same way we already recognize that an individual simply seeing somebody in public is a protected right but stalking is not. When the techno…

Smart = spy. Smart devices are spy devices, part of the governance control infrastructure.

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#49

Post by verisimi »

Its a perfect, self serving loop, if you think about it from a governance perspective.

Government takes taxes. It uses those taxes to spy on its citizens. This makes the citizens more compliant. Compliant citizens acquiesce more easily. Government therefore increases its power and does more of the same.

Greater invasive control results in more extraction from the citizens and more power to government.

From a governance perspective, this is a positive feedback loop. From a citizens perspective, it is a negative feedback loop.

Re: NSA Buys Americans' Internet Data Without Warrants, Unclassified Letter Says

#50

Post by austin-cheney »

legitster wrote: post #8

I'm trying to think through this from a legal perspective. If I'm going from store-to-store around town, my understanding is that police are allowed to watch me and even go into the businesses and ask questions or pull security footage without a warrant. The information they gather is circumstantial and probably would not hold up in court, but they can use it as grounds to get a warrant. Let's imagine a different cas…

The bigger issue that people always miss is that NSA is not law enforcement so they do not need a warrant. The Census Bureau does not need a warrant to gather information on Americans either, but for some weird reason people find the NSA controversial but not the census.
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