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Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

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Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#41

Post by danielovichdk »

You need to minimise the debating. Especially if it shows to be based on assumptions.

Debating is also used as a human interaction tool for "feeling part of" or "being good enough" and it's especially clear in a startup and early company setting where everyone kind of tries to show their own merits to the rest of the group.

It's unhealthy to debate a lot and it's a clear sign that there is either too much uncertainty, too much ego, too little subjective evidence or simply too shallow leadership.

Debating should be very surgical and not attempt to either look into the future or favor the most outspoken.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#42

Post by cqqxo4zV46cp »

fallous wrote: post #31
nomel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Culturally it is best to train developers to just do something, then provide non-judgemental feedback when what they do isn't what you want. My preferred method of development is tell me what you think you want, then be available for the stream of questions I'll be asking you to make sure what you need is accomplished. I've found that it's almost always a bad idea, for everyone involved, to implement what someone s…

Very much this. I have a long-standing saying that I share with those that want to bypass the "explain your goals to me" portion of the conversation and want to skip to "just do what I asked." "Be very careful what you ask for because if I really dislike you I'll give you EXACTLY what you ask for and you'll find out quickly how much you didn't want that."

This comment got me excited for something that’d actually be useful to say to people, instead it’s needlessly hostile.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#43

Post by cqqxo4zV46cp »

GiorgioG wrote: post #6
roenxi wrote: post #4

Culturally it is best to train developers to just do something, then provide non-judgemental feedback when what they do isn't what you want. Maybe schedule in some rework time to try again. That way, developers move quickly and sooner or later start building useful things. "Just tell me what to build" is a dangerous attitude to foster. It pushes more work into the management layer which is already a bottleneck for ma…

I don’t live in an alternate universe where “Maybe schedule in some rework time to try again” ever actually happens.

I’m in management and routinely allow for this. Not as much as my team would ideally like, as is and should be expected, but much more than zero. Sorry about your crappy job.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#44

Post by baq »

orand wrote: post #32

Sometimes (but not always) the reason for these cultures is more due to nature than nurture, in which case it can be virtually impossible to change without replacing people. I worked on a team that went from a very strong "debate everything" culture to a very apathetically strong "just tell me what to build" culture, and it was primarily due to the hires we made. We hired for the ability to grow technically, and that…

You say it’s a hiring problem and I see an incentives problem… either way a management failure but what you describe should’ve been reorged promptly.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#45

Post by rpmisms »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #42
fallous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much this. I have a long-standing saying that I share with those that want to bypass the "explain your goals to me" portion of the conversation and want to skip to "just do what I asked." "Be very careful what you ask for because if I really dislike you I'll give you EXACTLY what you ask for and you'll find out quickly how much you didn't want that."

This comment got me excited for something that’d actually be useful to say to people, instead it’s needlessly hostile.

It's easy to say with a smile an a laugh, but definitely depends on your organization. I do tell people almost exactly this in my solo dev role, but more win the context of "I literally don't have the time to redo this, so let's get it right the first time".

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#46

Post by atoav »

roenxi wrote: post #4

Culturally it is best to train developers to just do something, then provide non-judgemental feedback when what they do isn't what you want. Maybe schedule in some rework time to try again. That way, developers move quickly and sooner or later start building useful things. "Just tell me what to build" is a dangerous attitude to foster. It pushes more work into the management layer which is already a bottleneck for ma…

As a former freelancer in the webdesign, webprogramming, graphics design etc field, what astounded me the most when I first got to work with a software developement company was that there was no design session.

For me it was normal to assume that neither my customers nor I know what they need automatically. This requires a creative process and the finding of a common language at least in the beginning of the project.

The worst thing is when developers you work with are "Ok go!" without discussing and you know they got a hammer and now everything to them looks like a nail. Sure they get things done, but if so do builders that start building a house without a plan.

That strategy works if the requirements are foolproof and straightforward, but as soon as the project reaches a certain complexity. Sure requirements can change, customers can fuck up and misjudge what they want, but a good craftsperson thinks about the future of a project as well. And while you might think you sell software, you are also selling a relationship with the customer. If they feel like you tackled that problem openly together with them, that is worth something as well.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#47

Post by eastbound »

orand wrote: post #32

Sometimes (but not always) the reason for these cultures is more due to nature than nurture, in which case it can be virtually impossible to change without replacing people. I worked on a team that went from a very strong "debate everything" culture to a very apathetically strong "just tell me what to build" culture, and it was primarily due to the hires we made. We hired for the ability to grow technically, and that…

Another startup founder here. I regret not working early enough with an HR expert. It takes forever (any many relationships and many tries) to find the correct one, but:

- They’ll help you profile who you need. Questions you would never have dared asking, like “Tell me a situation when you reacted to xyz”, not only they filter the person, they also change the attitude of the relationship, the person itself goes from “it’s just a job” to “let’s put the extra neurons in, to make a product people actually love”,

- And they’ll give you weight in negotiation, asking questions you never dared asking.

It’s expensive, but recruiting more than one guy will be expensive anyway. And the engineering coming in, will feel safer that it’s a microstartup but it already has the structure to manage them, starting with HR.

And I say that as a person who only saw HR as the legal goon of the boss in the past. Don’t hire those, hire a consultant in recruiting.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#49

Post by mmcnl »

roenxi wrote: post #4

Culturally it is best to train developers to just do something, then provide non-judgemental feedback when what they do isn't what you want. Maybe schedule in some rework time to try again. That way, developers move quickly and sooner or later start building useful things. "Just tell me what to build" is a dangerous attitude to foster. It pushes more work into the management layer which is already a bottleneck for ma…

I'd argue that your best approach is only the "best" approach in specific environments you have encountered and that it is not a universal truth. I think it totally depends on the environment and what is expected from that environment what works best.

Re: Balancing engineering cultures: Debate everything vs. just tell me what to build

#50

Post by mmcnl »

rpmisms wrote: post #45
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment got me excited for something that’d actually be useful to say to people, instead it’s needlessly hostile.

It's easy to say with a smile an a laugh, but definitely depends on your organization. I do tell people almost exactly this in my solo dev role, but more win the context of "I literally don't have the time to redo this, so let's get it right the first time".

I think it's an engineer's responsibility to present likely outcomes with their likelihood without judgment. Opinions are usually not needed unless asked.
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