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Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

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Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#41

Post by ehaliewicz2 »

threeseed wrote: post #38
HDThoreaun wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a right to compete in a fair market, in the us at least. Apple has a monopoly on app delivery to everyone who has an iPhone, clearly their practices are anti competitive. It does not matter that judges disagree, all that means is that the current laws are deficient.

App Store is not a market and never has been. So the concept of monopolies and anti-competitive behaviour don't apply. It's why the courts treated Google differently in their Epic case to Apple.

This seems just completely false to me. People are exchanging currency for goods on the App store. Can you explain how that isn't a market?

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#42

Post by nickthegreek »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #33
MBCook wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple should’ve won the lawsuit. Epic broke TOS they agreed to, got punished, and whined a bunch to the court. They deserved to lose as they largely did. They’re also not innocent. They don’t want to get rid of all of this, they want the middleman cashing in to be THEMSELVES, not Apple. They’re no underdog hero. Apple is doing something incredibly stupid and absolutely killing their relationship with develope…

Who cares what Epic wants? Their incentives align with mine so I supported them. Apples practices here clearly harm consumers by reducing competition on iOS. It is obvious to me that if Epic won iOS would be a better product, at least for me.

Some would argue that Apples practices clearly protect the consumer from malware, privacy issues and scams. It is obvious to me that if Epic won iOS could be a worse product, at least for me.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#43

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

judge2020 wrote: post #26
librish wrote: post #5

I'm surprised that so many developers are siding with Apple in this regard. If other stores and payment options were allowed I genuinely believe that: - Apple's own fees would be reduced relatively quickly - Technological savvy users will be able to discern which external sites are safe and get even lower prices when available - Very few companies will be able to afford not being on the App Store (especially if Apple…

Unfortunately the most vulnerable will be easily manipulated into bypassing whatever prompts are needed. The threat vector is facebook telling users to install Instagram/FB from their own app store instead of from the App Store, both eroding their privacy (since they won't be mandated to respect the "do not track" popup) as well as training them how to install apps from third-party sources and that "it's OK to sidelo…

I doubt it, otherwise we'd see this in Android. And while it does happen of course, it's vanishingly rare. Anecdotally I have plenty of friends and family who are neither technically proficient nor well educated and they seem to be doing just fine.

Instead it's a boon, especially for folks like myself who use a fair amount of software from alternative stores/installers.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#45

Post by willsmith72 »

speedylight wrote: post #9

I don’t understand this issue too well to feel one or another. I just want all of my purchases and subscriptions to remain tied to my Apple ID and cancelable from my place. It makes life so much easier and saves money because it’s very hard to forget about subscriptions I no longer use when they’re all listed in one place. Also if I want to refund a purchase for whatever reason I can deal directly with Apple instead…

isn't that more of a personal finance problem than a tech platform problem?

you can find all your subscriptions there in one place until you start a new subscription on the web (maybe because it's cheaper), or you have one on a console. now suddenly you have multiple places to look again

there's no reason subscription management couldn't be managed at a higher level, outside of any tech platform. if 99% of banks weren't so technologically incapable it would seem obvious that it would be there, with the rest of your transactions. review/cancel/challenge/refund everything in one place, subscription or not.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#46

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

qarl wrote: post #10

Guys - Epic lost the lawsuit. That's why nothing changed. Why does this feel exactly like the 2020 election, where one side lost but keeps complaining that everyone is acting like they lost.

It wasn't a total loss though. The judge found Apple's anti-streering practices to be anti-competitive.

> The Epic Games v. Apple trial took place throughout May 2021 and was decided by Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers, who sided with Apple in nine of the ten counts brought against it by Epic Games. The count in which she sided with Epic related to Apple’s restriction against linking to web-based payments from within an app; she found that this violated California’s Unfair Competition Law and issued an injunction preventing Apple from enforcing this anti-steering provision;

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#47

Post by danielvaughn »

bmoxb wrote: post #18
danielvaughn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun and games until a competitor arrives on the market with a solid developer experience. As soon as that happens, I’m dropping Apple like a bad habit. The only thing keeping me on their tech is my hatred for Android’s UX. Heck, if the Windows phone was still around, I’d probably be on that.

I'm not advocating in either direction, but I'm curious what elements of iOS's UX you prefer over Android's?

Probably the navigation I guess, though it's not something I've given much detailed thought into. I just know that whenever I pick up a friend's Android, I hate the experience.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#48

Post by kj99 »

librish wrote: post #28
TillE wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 15% for any developer making under $1 million. Even if we think the SDKs should be free, you're not going to find a significantly better deal for payment (with Apple handling all sales taxes etc), auto updates, crash reporting, etc etc. Smaller developers aren't being ripped off, not anymore. There's a philosophical argument that Apple shouldn't control your device, but that really has nothing to do with the 30%…

Wouldn't Stripe be significantly cheaper? I'm making the opposite of a philosophical argument, I'm making a practical one. Apple is not going to take away the App Store, or make it too difficult for developers to upload apps, since that would be a real threat to their iPhone business. Developers need Apple, but Apple needs developers too. Currently their market domination makes it an extremely hard collective action…

> Wouldn't Stripe be significantly cheaper?

Can we stop pretending the app store fee is just for payment processing?

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#49

Post by HDThoreaun »

threeseed wrote: post #38
HDThoreaun wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a right to compete in a fair market, in the us at least. Apple has a monopoly on app delivery to everyone who has an iPhone, clearly their practices are anti competitive. It does not matter that judges disagree, all that means is that the current laws are deficient.

App Store is not a market and never has been. So the concept of monopolies and anti-competitive behaviour don't apply. It's why the courts treated Google differently in their Epic case to Apple.

How is the app store not a market?

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#50

Post by hamandcheese »

judge2020 wrote: post #26
librish wrote: post #5

I'm surprised that so many developers are siding with Apple in this regard. If other stores and payment options were allowed I genuinely believe that: - Apple's own fees would be reduced relatively quickly - Technological savvy users will be able to discern which external sites are safe and get even lower prices when available - Very few companies will be able to afford not being on the App Store (especially if Apple…

Unfortunately the most vulnerable will be easily manipulated into bypassing whatever prompts are needed. The threat vector is facebook telling users to install Instagram/FB from their own app store instead of from the App Store, both eroding their privacy (since they won't be mandated to respect the "do not track" popup) as well as training them how to install apps from third-party sources and that "it's OK to sidelo…

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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