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Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

theguardian.com

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Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#41

Post by Gare »

hef19898 wrote: post #19
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP did a bad job but here are my guesses. Most traditional UK homes do not have central air, they use boiler/radiator systems for the winter. Retrofitting these homes do have central air with a heat pump probably does not make sense. I don't think the product the OP linked was a very good example either. It's just an electric boiler that somehow stores offpeak energy to be used during the day. Don't know a lot ab…

Heat pumps work perfectly fine with radiator systems.

Can you link a drop-in heat pump replacement for my Vaillant gas boiler mounted in tiny apartment bathroom, which heats the radiators in the winter but also provides hot water year-round?

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#42

Post by dkdbejwi383 »

Faaak wrote: post #10
krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

The problem is at least partly because people in the UK are enamoured with old houses to the point of detriment when it comes to things like thermal efficiency. There are all sorts of heritage laws, local "conservation areas" etc that forbid things like double glazing, modern insulation, etc. The quality of the typical housing stock here is very poor.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#43

Post by soco »

krona wrote: post #35
Faaak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

Most boilers sit in peoples homes. An ASHP sits outside and you will need at least 5sq meters of space with excellent ventilation. That excludes many people (including me). But even then during winter the average ASHP makes too much noise. Planning regulations are starting to recognise the fact that they can be a nuisance in semi-rural areas, and your neighbours will hate you. This ignores all the problems around hav…

I don't know what you folks are able to choose from, but my neighbors have one of those installed last year and I can't hear it. So my guess is that noise is an old story which keeps being told - unless old models is all one can get.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#44

Post by hef19898 »

Gare wrote: post #41
hef19898 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat pumps work perfectly fine with radiator systems.

Can you link a drop-in heat pump replacement for my Vaillant gas boiler mounted in tiny apartment bathroom, which heats the radiators in the winter but also provides hot water year-round?

Talk to your local gas/water/heating instalation company, they are the experts.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#45

Post by timbit42 »

starbugs wrote: post #4
robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

Why do you doubt anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system? I bought and paid for two heat pumps twelve years ago and the reduction in energy costs resulted in them paying for themselves after 11 years. The cost of ownership was simply the purchase and installation cost as I did not take out a loan or receive any government funding. There was virtually no maintenance required except cleaning the humidity drain half a dozen times. Right now I'm waiting to see how long they last before they fail so I can calculate the total amount of savings. I should also point out that because my heat pumps are 12 years old, they only have a CoP of 3, while new heat pumps have a CoP of 4 and it is expected units with a CoP of 5 will be available within a few years.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#46

Post by ghusto »

robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower?

Feels like a poorly thought out panic solution here in the Netherlands, where they're saying they're going to shut off gas in n years (number keeps changing, because it's more of a scare tactic to get people moving).

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#47

Post by Thlom »

soco wrote: post #30
jltsiren wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.

5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?

This number is more or less the same in Norway as well for air-to-air pumps without subsidies. Keep in mind that oil/gas heating and such is not normal, we've used electricity and firewood for heating for the most part. So replacing electric heaters with a heat pump will drastically reduce electricity costs, improve air quality and improve heating. Really a no brainer.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#48

Post by soco »

dralley wrote: post #3

I don't doubt that heat pumps are cheaper than gas bottles for a moment, especially in Europe, but it sounds like they also added a bunch of insulation at the same time as installing the heat pump. Anyway, newer heat pump systems are great. I'm low-key hoping the 13 year old gas furnace in my attic kicks the bucket so I can replace it with another of the same system we use to heat/cool the downstairs.

If it kicks the bucket in winter you'll be in a bad place. On top of it, our local laws (Swiss) forbid you replacing old tech, so you will have to go immediately through the hoops of quickly installing a heat pump of sorts (good luck with that).

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#49

Post by starbugs »

ghusto wrote: post #46
robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower? Feels like a poorly thought out panic solution here in the Netherlands, where they're saying they're going to shut off gas in n years (number keeps changing, because it's more of a scare tactic to get people moving).

> Aren't they also inappropriate for showers, as in they can't heat the water fast enough for a hot shower?

Yep. I have looked at some newly built homes in my area. All of those that have heat pumps have flow heaters installed for hot water. So you have a COP of 1 there.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#50

Post by dkdbejwi383 »

starbugs wrote: post #13
bongobingo1 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We recently replaced our old leaking big-ass-tank gas hotwater service with a continuous flow gas system. I looked into heat pumps, but cost the of the device + installation + an electrician to run a new line (seemed that would be needed) ... I dont think it was ever going to break even over the rated life span of the system. The cheap ones were still 3 times the price of a gas system, just for the hardware. That and…

> Another sad mark in the "wish I didnt have to kill the planet but ..." column. The high cost of the hardware, installation and maintenance suggests that you would rather "kill the planet" with the system installed?

I'm not sure whether your question is some kind of flippant accusation, but in case you're being genuine: I think the poster you quoted is saying something like:

if I could afford to do the right thing for the planet, I would - but I cannot afford to and am forced to do something which I know is detrimental.

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