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How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

reuters.com

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Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#41

Post by wasm123 »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #34
laweijfmvo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is a good time for me to vent about exit row seating? I was recently on a holiday flight where an older couple walked very delicately up to the gate. When prompted, "are you able and willing to assist in the event of an emergency?" the lady immediately said "oh no, we can't..." and the guy says "well, there won't be an emergency, right?" To her credit, the crew member checking us in very sternly told him t…

What, specifically, do you think requires a strong man in this case? Airplane overwing exit doors come in two types. The ones that you fully detach and throw out, which weigh less than the average passenger's suitcase [1]. The larger and heavier ones are spring-assisted so you can literally open them with one hand while seated [2]. [1] https://youtu.be/RCFzEg-t_Bk?si=xACVKqIvakrrJnaT at 0:25 [2] https://youtu.be/ZW4x…

To me it seems the biggest dangers about exit doors are not accidents. But someone who snaps and wants to open the exit door during take off/landing where the outside air pressure is low enough to more easily open the door. In this kind of situation a strong man doesn't hurt.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#42

Post by gwill »

wasm123 wrote: post #41
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, specifically, do you think requires a strong man in this case? Airplane overwing exit doors come in two types. The ones that you fully detach and throw out, which weigh less than the average passenger's suitcase [1]. The larger and heavier ones are spring-assisted so you can literally open them with one hand while seated [2]. [1] https://youtu.be/RCFzEg-t_Bk?si=xACVKqIvakrrJnaT at 0:25 [2] https://youtu.be/ZW4x…

To me it seems the biggest dangers about exit doors are not accidents. But someone who snaps and wants to open the exit door during take off/landing where the outside air pressure is low enough to more easily open the door. In this kind of situation a strong man doesn't hurt.

unless the strong man is the one that wants to open the door.

i think i've heard of someone trying to open a door mid flight once though, so unless i'm poorly informed, let's not give the TSA ideas around mental health screenings before flights.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#43

Post by wasm123 »

twohaibei wrote: post #38
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, specifically, do you think requires a strong man in this case? Airplane overwing exit doors come in two types. The ones that you fully detach and throw out, which weigh less than the average passenger's suitcase [1]. The larger and heavier ones are spring-assisted so you can literally open them with one hand while seated [2]. [1] https://youtu.be/RCFzEg-t_Bk?si=xACVKqIvakrrJnaT at 0:25 [2] https://youtu.be/ZW4x…

On the last plane I was, the door was 17kg and instructions said to pick it up, turn sideways, then throw away. I prefer strong men to do it when my life depends on it.

I googled if it was possible. It harder mid flight, but take offs or landing its much easier. I would rather we accept the fact this risk exists and take the necessary precaution of putting someone at the door that can more handle the situation than pretend it doesn't exist.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#44

Post by rawgabbit »

Freak_NL wrote: post #3

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked…

I was going to say the same thing. This is the positive aspect of Japanese/East Asian culture. They give authority figures the benefit of the doubt and will listen to instructions.

Of course, this obedience to authority has a downside. In South Korea, when the Sewol ferry sank, the crew instructed the passengers to stay inside their rooms while they drank beer and abandoned ship. Many of the obedient passengers drowned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Sewol

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#45

Post by aaron695 »

Freak_NL wrote: post #3

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked…

[dead]

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#46

Post by BeefDinnerPurge »

trebligdivad wrote: post #10
Freak_NL wrote: post #3

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked…

Flames shooting up around the plane after a collision have got to focus the mind of the passengers; so I guess it's hard to compare different incidents.

If they're close to the exit, it's clearly someone else's problem for those that aren't in our culture. If only they'd invested in their personal safety they wouldn't be burning to death and how else will they learn?

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#47

Post by sand500 »

joshAg wrote: post #39
dvngnt_ wrote: post #7

Was the initial cause of the collision human error? i was on r/singularity and people were saying that pilots should be replaced with AI, but what about if something goes wrong? wouldn't it be better to have a human takeover in emergency situations? but i also wonder if automation would have prevented the initial collision.

The aviation industry doesn't usually reduce incidents down to a single proximate or ultimate cause like that, but instead notes every decision/event that contributed to the incident occurring. And then they usually spend time on how they can reduce the likelihood of such an event reoccurring at every single point in that chain. It appears that the coast guard plane lined up on the runway to prepare for takeoff inste…

> The aviation industry doesn't usually reduce incidents down to a single proximate or ultimate cause like that

Correct. Folks here might be interested in the swiss cheese model: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#48

Post by fy20 »

wasm123 wrote: post #41
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, specifically, do you think requires a strong man in this case? Airplane overwing exit doors come in two types. The ones that you fully detach and throw out, which weigh less than the average passenger's suitcase [1]. The larger and heavier ones are spring-assisted so you can literally open them with one hand while seated [2]. [1] https://youtu.be/RCFzEg-t_Bk?si=xACVKqIvakrrJnaT at 0:25 [2] https://youtu.be/ZW4x…

To me it seems the biggest dangers about exit doors are not accidents. But someone who snaps and wants to open the exit door during take off/landing where the outside air pressure is low enough to more easily open the door. In this kind of situation a strong man doesn't hurt.

You mean when the inside air pressure is low enough. Aircraft doors fit like a plug, held in by air pressure in the cabin. If you look when they are opened they all move inward first. This is why they can't be opened mid-flight.

At the point where they can be opened, the pressure differential is going to be so low that nothing bad is going to happen, other than maybe someone's bag in the exit row being blown out by the wind. Plus everyone should be strapped in at that point.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#49

Post by snakeyjake »

Freak_NL wrote: post #3

I am inclined to think that this exact same scenario featuring a plane full of not Japanese, but, say, Dutch, English, or Americans, would not have resulted in a full evacuation in 18 minutes; possibly with casualties. Obeying commands as a group in a high-pressure situation? That takes a lifetime of living in a culture where this is normal. A group of military passengers (any nationality) would probably have worked…

British Airways flight 2276, 170 passengers and crew. 2 minutes 32 seconds.

>All occupants, including one lap child, and the flight and cabin crewmembers evacuated the airplane through the 1L, 1R, or 4L door slides. (The flight attendants estimated that only five passengers evacuated using the 1L door slide, which was subsequently blocked due to fire.) The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) obtained videos that showed that the evacuation was completed about 2 minutes 32 seconds after the captain's initial command to evacuate.

https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/4367.pdf

TWA Flight 843, 292 passengers and crew. "Less than two minutes"

>All of the flight attendants stated that the evacuation was completed in less than 2 minutes.

https://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraf...

Every time I read a comment about JaPaNeSe CuLtUrE I throw up in my mouth a little because was stationed in Japan for a total of three years and their culture is just as fucked as everyone else's... just in different ways.

Re: How Japan Airlines crew led 367 passengers to safety from a burning plane

#50

Post by eesmith »

ExMachina73 wrote: post #24

Seems that an overriding "lock all overhead storage" mechanism and control in the cockpit would be useful in these situations. Forced compliance would save lives. Granted some stow baggage under the seats, but I think an override would still be beneficial.

Which means running extra wires, and special locking hardware, all of which can break so calls for additional maintenance.

And when it does break, you've got people in the aisle wanting their carry-ons - which may include medicine or other essential items - so you need to train the cabin crew on how to manage that situation.

If power goes out in-flight, which does happen, do the storage bins stay locked, or do they fail-safe to unlocked? Is there a manual override for when that medicine is really needed?

Consider Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571, "the Miracle of the Andes", where the plane crashed on a glacier in the Andes. The used what was in the luggage to rescue themself. Were it locked away, things would have been tougher for them.

Figuring out how to handle low-probability situations is hard.

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