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Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

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Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#41
post #38

I don't understand our modern tech culture of saying maintenance is the last on the list; always getting chopped and cut; never getting a decent budget. In 20 years and several different companies I have always heard this but never agreed with it. Sure, the company wants new features to market, but the company also wants things to freaking work. During layoffs and hiring freezes I have seen SRE type orgs fair better…

Both maintenance and testing are not valued by business. Because you cannot sell maintenance to the customer, you only can sell features.

From the developer's point of view maintenance also a thing to avoid. You cannot put a maintenance as a shiny point to your CV. Everyone wants to see your achievements, projects you shipped, and with modern technology, of course.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#42

What if you are one of the only few who know how to maintain a Cobol system for a bank? Aren't you very valuable?

People get overly excited by some "last man standing" success stories of a COBOL developer based in US of A. My only encounter with COBOL developer was a freshly graduated girl based in post Communist country, her earnings were something around 25k EUR annually. I pointed out that her career might be something of a dead end but she was more like "a job is a job". Oh, and they were using some dinosaur version control…

>her earnings were something around 25k EUR annually.

That's a fairly good salary for a recent graduate in Eastern Europe.

Although I admit it does illustrate your point that some legacy tech stacks are quite easy to pick up.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#43

I think profit center vs cost center is a better model.

I think it’s a nonsensical model. Every department is ideally responsible for both revenues and costs. If you can’t measure it, it is a problem of your KPIs. So the KPIs may be cost-oriented (and thus badly aligned), it doesn’t make the department itself a cost center.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#44

It doesn't matter where you work at, when layoffs come, the executives will care about location, timezones, desire on finishing the current project you are working on, (maybe) performance etc. There are too many criteria and no clear pointer on what is safe and what isn't. Being part of a layoff and also watching other colleagues coming from other Big Tech companies share their experiences, you'd see people laid off…

In my experience there are two things that bring layoffs: poor sales and bad product management.

When I was at Travelocity they had by far the best brand awareness and marketing. They also had the best pricing algorithms resulting in massive profit margins compared to the competition. Nonetheless they were destroyed in the marketplace. The biggest killer is that Expedia invested heavily in sales to the sacrifice of everything else eventually resulting in inventory relations teams 3-5x greater than what Travelocity could dream of affording. That was enough to achieve market dominance for Expedia.

Then to make that worse Travelocity only understood growth which was a colossal strategic failure executives would repeat over and over. When it became clear to the original executive team they simply left the company. There was a later executive that doubled down on this and in one year converted a $100 million business to a $60 million business. That guy is still a travel industry executive.

The final nail in the coffin is poor product. It would fail at checkout thereby dropping sales and those customers would never come back. It costs too much to maintain because of poor decisions about software execution. They would also make bad decisions about new initiatives until they doubled down on A/B testing. Then to compensate for all these product failures they would over invest in advertising which drove more customers off the site.

Poor software execution resulted in my layoff from my previous job. The thing that has saved me from layoffs in the past was having a skill that was both essential and difficult to replace just by hiring. The thing that resulted in my layoff from the last job was a fragile product and the unwillingness to fix that product. This is why I have abandoned any kind of web related work. More often than not terrible decisions are intentionally made on the basis of immediate people replacement or immediate feature delivery without regard for how shitty or expensive the new feature is. So much of the time it feels like children are running the daycare because people with inadequate experience want to visibility and nobody wants to clean up their messes.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#45
post #38

I don't understand our modern tech culture of saying maintenance is the last on the list; always getting chopped and cut; never getting a decent budget. In 20 years and several different companies I have always heard this but never agreed with it. Sure, the company wants new features to market, but the company also wants things to freaking work. During layoffs and hiring freezes I have seen SRE type orgs fair better…

Both maintenance and testing are not valued by business. Because you cannot sell maintenance to the customer, you only can sell features. From the developer's point of view maintenance also a thing to avoid. You cannot put a maintenance as a shiny point to your CV. Everyone wants to see your achievements, projects you shipped, and with modern technology, of course.

> Because you cannot sell maintenance to the customer, you only can sell features.

That does not seem to be true in many B2B areas. Software suppliers are selling maintenance and support contracts to their customers. Think ERP.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#46
post #19

> Maintenance is always on the chopping block I wonder if someone or someplace figured a way to make software maintenance and support to be better valued. It's like, it's reasonably easy to market and sell internally the start of a project and consume from some internal investment (CapEx like) budget to make it, but once you have done all of that was in scope, you delivered, it's a lot harder to keep it going at the…

Maintenance is instantly a good business case if you can sell maintenance and support contracts to your customers. Of course you will rarely find that in B2C areas, but in B2B it is not uncommon.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get overly excited by some "last man standing" success stories of a COBOL developer based in US of A. My only encounter with COBOL developer was a freshly graduated girl based in post Communist country, her earnings were something around 25k EUR annually. I pointed out that her career might be something of a dead end but she was more like "a job is a job". Oh, and they were using some dinosaur version control…

I've seen a post on local job board in Poland, IBM was looking for junior cobol engineer. Any student with some java knowledge will fit, they said. I'm sure they will not pay anything more than 25k eur anually. Also if there is some legacy cobol system, many managers are incentivised to gather a new team to write a replacement with some modern technology stack. Cobol is definitely a dead end for the career.

> legacy cobol system, many managers are incentivised to gather a new team to write a replacement with some modern technology stack.

Absolutely not in outsourcing centers like this. You're not supposed to show any initiative or god forbid - design anything. You grunt the COBOL until budget for the project is zero.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#48
post #36
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The higher up the org chat you report to is, the safer your position becomes. At one job, I reported directly to the still-reigning cofounder of a long lived company. Never have I felt a stronger sense of job security than that.

I already worked for companies where there were management changes at a crazy pace, I'm not sure that all of them got promoted and I have the impression that some of them might have been fired as well. I don't want to start a flame war but it's much easier to replace a manager than a technical person, a technical job is boring and most people don't want to do it while management relies more on soft skills, something…

Most people don't want to do technical jobs? That's not my experience at all. We've had vacant management positions for months because nobody wants to do that role. We'd get no volunteers internally and only a handful of suitable candidates would apply from outside.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can totally attest to that. I once worked for a company where the CTO that was 3-4 levels above hired me directly and I reported to him. It felt very empowering and motivating because I was working on what he considered a critical area for the day-to-day of the company. Once he was gone, I suddenly was a huge problem to all the middle managers that disagreed with the CTO. If you happen to be in that situation, bett…

What would you have done differently? Built a better relationship with the middle managers? Kept your ear to the ground and left before the CTO did? Interviewed every quarter so you'd be able to leave and land elsewhere? Something else?

I think better relationship with middle managers and maybe leave with the CTO if it made sense (it didn't, in my case). I was too focused on doing things and assumed the CTO was taking care of "winning the hearts" of middle managers. He wasn't. It was a very top-bottom initiative and that rarely works when culture is involved.

So yeah, I think I should have "managed up" so this initiative wasn't tied to the specific CTO but was a common agreement. If the CTO wasn't doing that, I guess I should have called his attention to it or done it myself.

To be honest, middle managers not thinking it was important is just baffling but that's another long story.

As for keeping ear to the ground, I wouldn't even attempt that because I really suck at that (and it's distracting, I'd rather leave). But many people have success with that approach.

Re: Software engineering salaries come from one of three budgets

#50

It doesn't matter where you work at, when layoffs come, the executives will care about location, timezones, desire on finishing the current project you are working on, (maybe) performance etc. There are too many criteria and no clear pointer on what is safe and what isn't. Being part of a layoff and also watching other colleagues coming from other Big Tech companies share their experiences, you'd see people laid off…

In my experience there are two things that bring layoffs: poor sales and bad product management. When I was at Travelocity they had by far the best brand awareness and marketing. They also had the best pricing algorithms resulting in massive profit margins compared to the competition. Nonetheless they were destroyed in the marketplace. The biggest killer is that Expedia invested heavily in sales to the sacrifice of e…

Salesforce layoffs had no internal cause - just "investors want us to cut costs". They selected people at random, and we lost tons of people who were essential and difficult to replace. Then they said "we can't guarantee there won't be more, and we can't tell you any way to avoid being hit". And then they said stuff about productivity going down but I didn't care, surprise!
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