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How to forget what you read

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Re: How to forget what you read

#41

Post by Tallain »

bunderbunder wrote: post #39
infertainment wrote: post #25

>forgetting is a filter Exactly. Spaced repetition is a remarkably effective learning technique, but it can't tell you what to learn. At some point I think we have to stop listening to external authorities and rely on our own judgement about what to learn, and how to do so, as signalled by feelings of excitement about particular authors and ideas. One of the effects of formal education is to dampen or corrupt that in…

I'm coming to wonder if tools like Anki are even detrimental for most learning tasks. Because SRS is built around rote memorizing a bunch of isolated factoids, while the most important part of mastering most subjects is not memorizing facts, it's learning interactions and patterns that let you make use of those facts. Like, imagine if someone learning to program put a huge amount of their effort into using flashcards…

I can anecdotally support the criticism of Anki / SRS for language learning, at least as far as rote word definition memorization goes.

While learning Thai -- which is a difficult language already -- I continually struggled with word definitions that should have been easy. How hard is it to remember the words for the various parts of your head and body? With just word definitions, apparently, it's really, really hard.

But then I supplemented this with other tools. One teaches a few words, then throw those words into full phrases in little quizlets. You pick out the written phrase which you think matches the spoken phrase. It always includes one or some of the words you've learned. It puts the words in context, cementing the definition, teaching you grammar, and "foreshadowing" new words. It's skyrocketed my retention and comprehension.

Pictures also help. Children's books with audio narrating are huge.

I guess my point is, Anki with word definitions alone is definitely garbage, or less than ideal at best. Which is why most language learning resources stress that it alone isn't enough - and most learning resources who push Anki (or SRS in general) don't say "do only this." It's part of a balanced breakfast, so to speak. Incorporate it into your workflow, but don't make it the workflow.

Re: How to forget what you read

#42

Post by skydhash »

taopai wrote: post #4

I used to take endless notes on .org documents and build myself small wiki sites in django... You know what makes the difference? Take a walk, or catch a train and think about what you read. Find the main ideas and how the material relates to yourself. Play with it and ask yourself questions about it. Then next day try to answer them in paper without extra material. And only after that reread the book to check or fin…

> Take a walk, or catch a train and think about what you read. Find the main ideas and how the material relates to yourself. Play with it and ask yourself questions about it.

This is the most important step. Read, then take a break. Practice, then take a break. During the break, mull over the ideas and do not rush to the next things. It’s that period of reflection which will bring new ideas.

About engagement, i tried to reread great fiction books or rewatch my favorite movies. When you no longer fascinated by the plot, you can enjoy the process that creates it.

Re: How to forget what you read

#43

Post by skydhash »

hareket wrote: post #38
VoodooJuJu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a truth about learning that people don't want to hear, but they need to hear it. Everyone wants to hear about magic productivity and learning hacks. They end up speed-reading and playing Anki, but they get nowhere. What's worse is they think they're getting somewhere, especially with the facade erected by games like Anki. There are no shortcuts to learning and memorizing what you read. You have to really dige…

While I respect your viewpoint, my personal experience significantly differs from that. My familiarity with speed-reading is limited because I never deemed it worth, as I think reading should mostly be a slow pleasure, but Anki, like any well-designed spaced repetition routine, algorithm, or application, got me VERY far. I returned to high school as an adult and later attended university, which provided me with a var…

Maybe the process is what got you there, not space repetition itself. Creating a moment of time to revisit concept is a core of all the successful methods I’ve seen.

Re: How to forget what you read

#44

Post by 8lahaj »

I started learning some introductory maths on my own recently--via a relatively rigourous proof oriented text, a format of which I had no background with--and on one of the first few pages the author says something along the lines of 'if you're learning this for the first time, you should be spending at least an hour per page'. I was shocked at first, a bit incredulous, an hour? per page? ridiculous -- until I started reached the actual text.

I thought I was bright as a child, not studying, but as I got older I realized this was not the case (albeit still holding out some hope). At first, in this endeavor, I was discouraged spending so long, but then, oddly enough, I found myself proud of the fact I spent so much time trying to understand the content. Reading and re-reading until I understood what was going on -- and then the next day, I would forget some of it, so I would read it again (this time spending less time (woohoo!)), until I could now not only recite the content but understand it.

Re: How to forget what you read

#45

Post by hareket »

skydhash wrote: post #43
hareket wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I respect your viewpoint, my personal experience significantly differs from that. My familiarity with speed-reading is limited because I never deemed it worth, as I think reading should mostly be a slow pleasure, but Anki, like any well-designed spaced repetition routine, algorithm, or application, got me VERY far. I returned to high school as an adult and later attended university, which provided me with a var…

Maybe the process is what got you there, not space repetition itself. Creating a moment of time to revisit concept is a core of all the successful methods I’ve seen.

I've considered and accounted for it, but if I remove the spaced repetition part, it all falls apart, whatever the variation happens to be. At best it works in the short term, but after that, much of it becomes vague background noise.

Re: How to forget what you read

#46

Post by teecha »

this one really hit me at just the right time as a book I've really been enjoying, Thanks for the Feedback, has been lying unread on my shelf as I increasingly had decided the need to jot down everything that might be important as a read

previously, i devoured, and loved, difficult conversations by the same authors and found quite a lot of things that resonated with me personally and professionally. some of these i've continued to use and integrate into my daily job as an assistant principal with staff, students, and parents, with great effect

the long and short of it is that i gleaned quite a lot from simply reading through one book while stalling out on the second in an attempt to get everything out of it that i can. it is clear to me that simply reading through the first one was not only an experience enjoyable for it's own sake but also helpful in my day to day

i'd say this hits on a few things that have come about to me recently

- embracing finitude, ala four thousand weeks by oliver burke, that we can't and won't be able to learn or know everything while simultaneously embracing the fact that it is okay to simply do something for the sake of enjoyment, feeling awe, etc.

- people tend to change in fits and spurts and massive changes are relatively uncommon in a short time span. think of oneself as a growing plant as opposed to a suddenly exploding fire

- i've long felt that we think and understand the world around us in metaphors. read this in 'metaphors with live by' in college and since then the connections have tended to be endless. i'd say i am moving towards a different metaphor for people, not sure exactly how i'd word it, but it is moving away from humans as a machine or time is money and more towards humans a plant needing care and cultivation and..i don't have one for time yet

Re: How to forget what you read

#47

Post by bunderbunder »

Tallain wrote: post #41
bunderbunder wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm coming to wonder if tools like Anki are even detrimental for most learning tasks. Because SRS is built around rote memorizing a bunch of isolated factoids, while the most important part of mastering most subjects is not memorizing facts, it's learning interactions and patterns that let you make use of those facts. Like, imagine if someone learning to program put a huge amount of their effort into using flashcards…

I can anecdotally support the criticism of Anki / SRS for language learning, at least as far as rote word definition memorization goes. While learning Thai -- which is a difficult language already -- I continually struggled with word definitions that should have been easy. How hard is it to remember the words for the various parts of your head and body? With just word definitions, apparently, it's really , really har…

So, here's where it gets wild: a couple years ago I stumbled across a study with two treatment groups. The first group was just given graded readers targeting certain vocabulary, and was asked to read them as much as they like. The second was given the same graded readers, but also asked to use flashcards to review the target vocabulary.

So, the flashcard group was just using flashcards as a supplement to extensive reading.

Well, at the end of the treatment period, both groups had the same vocabulary retention. But a couple months later they tested again, and the "no flashcards" group had better retention of the target vocabulary. And not by a small amount, either.

Re: How to forget what you read

#48

Post by rsanek »

bunderbunder wrote: post #39
infertainment wrote: post #25

>forgetting is a filter Exactly. Spaced repetition is a remarkably effective learning technique, but it can't tell you what to learn. At some point I think we have to stop listening to external authorities and rely on our own judgement about what to learn, and how to do so, as signalled by feelings of excitement about particular authors and ideas. One of the effects of formal education is to dampen or corrupt that in…

I'm coming to wonder if tools like Anki are even detrimental for most learning tasks. Because SRS is built around rote memorizing a bunch of isolated factoids, while the most important part of mastering most subjects is not memorizing facts, it's learning interactions and patterns that let you make use of those facts. Like, imagine if someone learning to program put a huge amount of their effort into using flashcards…

> Academics seem to be pretty skeptical of using any sort of flashcarding to learn vocabulary ... the empirical evidence doesn't actually seem to support it

What does this refer to? Generally I've referenced the Improving Students’ Learning review by Dunlosky et. al. [0] to see what is supported by the literature. The two techniques listed there as having 'high' utility -- Practice testing and Distributed practice -- are most easily accessible through usage of SRS-based flashcards.

[0] https://pcl.sitehost.iu.edu/rgoldsto/courses/dunloskyimprovi...

Re: How to forget what you read

#49

Post by jbstack »

skydhash wrote: post #43
hareket wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I respect your viewpoint, my personal experience significantly differs from that. My familiarity with speed-reading is limited because I never deemed it worth, as I think reading should mostly be a slow pleasure, but Anki, like any well-designed spaced repetition routine, algorithm, or application, got me VERY far. I returned to high school as an adult and later attended university, which provided me with a var…

Maybe the process is what got you there, not space repetition itself. Creating a moment of time to revisit concept is a core of all the successful methods I’ve seen.

How do you know when is the optimal time for those revisits? Is it a week later, then a month later, then 6 months later? How do you make that decision? What method will you use to revisit? Will you locate the original book, find the right page, re-read the passage? Or perhaps you'll go to the right section in your notebook and re-read that?

Any time you do all of that you're essentially doing what Anki does but in a less efficient and less automated way. The point of Anki is (a) to make a reasonable decision on your behalf about when to revisit, and (b) to automate the process of retrieving and displaying the information which is being revisited.

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