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A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

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Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#41
post #19

I know there's no market for people like me, but I would never buy an internet connected car. It just seems so fucking insane to me that people are willing to accept relying on something that can be bricked remotely. Same goes for any sort of involuntary OTA updates to anything, and software as a service in general. The thing that matters to me is that my tools still work tomorrow when I need them to, and if they bre…

You'll change your mind the first time you turn on the heat from across the parking lot while sipping coffee in the ski lodge, or need to check the charge status while eating lunch, or point stuff out on the satellite imagery on the live map. I know it's easy to imagine that the product you think is "a car" is finished, but product categories evolve. People want their devices to do different things today than they di…

>the market has spoken.

In the sense that a market is made up of buyers and sellers, and the sellers have decided to offer no other option yes.

I think the issue is more of the design and ownership of these things. No one wants an update bricking their car. I doubt a lot of people here would object to a discrete subsystem where you could poll charge status, turn on heating etc.

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#42
post #4

My Tesla had an update fail, and it didn't break anything, I just got a new update package the next day. I also replaced my own headlight and had to run a software update to initialize the new part. I called a service center and had a software update in less than an hour. Try that at Audi.

Tesla knows what it’s doing. Not these guys.

That's the point I'm making. Fail-safe and good testing.

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#44

It’s a bit troubling that automakers (and, well, anyone who is building things that have mechanisms for software updates) aren’t making software updates failsafe. If you have multiple copies of the image on storage, and you take care not to touch the currently-running image, then a failed software update to the alternate image shouldn’t have any impact. Think of it like blue-green deployments on the cloud; and it’s w…

Tesla is. Failed updates are non-destructive, they also have an RTOS gateway isolating entertainment software from the software needed to drive the vehicle.

https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/reverse-engine...

And this is their decade old architecture. If you watch some cybertruck videos you’ll see it is much more elegant now.

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#45
post #19

I know there's no market for people like me, but I would never buy an internet connected car. It just seems so fucking insane to me that people are willing to accept relying on something that can be bricked remotely. Same goes for any sort of involuntary OTA updates to anything, and software as a service in general. The thing that matters to me is that my tools still work tomorrow when I need them to, and if they bre…

You'll change your mind the first time you turn on the heat from across the parking lot while sipping coffee in the ski lodge, or need to check the charge status while eating lunch, or point stuff out on the satellite imagery on the live map. I know it's easy to imagine that the product you think is "a car" is finished, but product categories evolve. People want their devices to do different things today than they di…

Sure, it's the market that has spoken..

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-...

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#46

I can hear the dejected software engineer that wrote or plugged in that error message after layers of bureaucracy

Not at all. Dejection and uncooperativeness render one a bad team player. The recruitment pipelines aggressively screen against these. Software engineers rarely care or have authority to be ethical gatekeepers.

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#47
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this is possible without integrating the software into the vehicle itself, making it brickable. Reliability and repairability going down is not "evolution" in any sense. And the market hasn't really said anything when those things have been pushed into consumers without much choice. Saying "the market has spoken" in this case is like saying the market has spoken when someone claims that slapping a fruit logo is e…

I feel it's not completely impossible to design a system that is properly partitioned, such that an update failure to the seat heating software doesn't brick the car. Updates to core systems should be rare in the extreme.

I would say part of the problem is that they want the option of updating seat heating software, rather than actually properly testing the up and down buttons and the thermostat.

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#48
post #12

I wish someone would make a truly dumb car. Sure you can have microcontrollers for emissions, safety, etc but beyond that give me a 1970s user interface and make the car as independent of technology as possible.

https://bollingermotors.com/b1-b2/

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#49

It’s a bit troubling that automakers (and, well, anyone who is building things that have mechanisms for software updates) aren’t making software updates failsafe. If you have multiple copies of the image on storage, and you take care not to touch the currently-running image, then a failed software update to the alternate image shouldn’t have any impact. Think of it like blue-green deployments on the cloud; and it’s w…

It's really interesting that updates can't revert, or enable some limp mode, or disable the offending functionality.

Re: A recent software update was not successful. Your vehicle cannot be driven

#50

Every passing news cycle, I am getting more and more reasons to repair and stick with my current vehicle. Perhaps I would be better off paying a mechanic to teach me how to do the basic maintenance and repairs.

Can’t recommend highly enough: https://www.howacarworks.com/
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