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Build a search engine, not a vector DB

blog.elicit.com

41–50 of 84 posts

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#41
This resonates with the approach we’ve taken in Langroid (the Multi-Agent framework from ex-CMU/UW-Madison researchers): our DocChatAgent uses a combination of lexical and semantic retrieval, reranking and relevance extraction to improve precision and recall:

https://github.com/langroid/langroid/blob/main/langroid/agen...

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#42
post #33
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we have no stemming support in Confluence" goes far beyond unfortunate defaults.

Which is the height of bullshit since Confluence uses Lucene internally, which obviously does support stemming (at least it didn't. Luckily, I haven't had to use Confluence for ages). Confluence search is what happens when some dev gets told "hey, add search, we need to mark a checkbox", searches for 30s for "Java search lib" and just adds Lucene without knowing anything about it.

JIRA gets a lot of bad press but it works ok. Confluence is an utter PoS with nothing going for it, nothing working the way it should or the way a random user would expect them to work.

How it survives (thrives) on the marketplace is a mystery.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#43
post #17

Many, many big companies don't see any value in search. They simply use the defaults, and when those defaults are abysmal (like in the case of Confluence for example), well... they just suffer through it in silence. I have so far mostly failed in trying to explain 1/ why search matters and 2/ that not all "search" functionality are equal and that building good search is an art form.

> I have so far mostly failed in trying to explain 1/ why search matters and 2/ that not all "search" functionality are equal and that building good search is an art form. Yeah, it takes an absurd amount of tuning to make search work well. Given how poorly the average search field works in almost anything, it's fair to say this crucial step isn't happening. I suspect a lot of organizations just don't have workflows t…

Doesn't look like work, yet tragically, incremental improvements to "frictionlessness" represent order-of-magnitude improvements to user experience.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#44
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have so far mostly failed in trying to explain 1/ why search matters and 2/ that not all "search" functionality are equal and that building good search is an art form. Yeah, it takes an absurd amount of tuning to make search work well. Given how poorly the average search field works in almost anything, it's fair to say this crucial step isn't happening. I suspect a lot of organizations just don't have workflows t…

Doesn't look like work, yet tragically, incremental improvements to "frictionlessness" represent order-of-magnitude improvements to user experience.

Oh yeah, it's definitely an organizational problem that's pretty widespread. I think it boils down to a general lack of trust, and a willingness to turn developers into a sort of assembly line workers.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#45

I think a fundamental issue with search, and the reason why many companies do not invest in tuning a good search experience, is that the main metric usually is to minimise embarrassing/irrelevant results, rather than get the best possible set of results. How can you even know what is the best answer to your query? Systematic evaluation is very hard.

If you control the browser your results are in you can monitor clicks and time spent on document to generate pretty good signal. If someone opens a document and looks at it for fifteen minutes you should be fairly convinced it was useful.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#46
I feel like we're passing the peak of a vector db hype cycle, where its increasingly clear its one retrieval strategy next to full-text search strategies. I constantly talk to people trying to build RAG and they realize they need a full-text search solution, and a number of strategies, VERY dependent on the task you want your chat system to accomplish.

It's important we get through the trough of disillusionment quickly. There's a lot of market education needed to know when they're truly needed.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#47
> you could have a language model construct a query that includes a date filter.

But be careful because the output is not guaranteed. Which means you have to take care to provide the schema and what you're trying to do within the context window, and validate the output. There is a non-trivial overhead to this.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#48
post #17

Many, many big companies don't see any value in search. They simply use the defaults, and when those defaults are abysmal (like in the case of Confluence for example), well... they just suffer through it in silence. I have so far mostly failed in trying to explain 1/ why search matters and 2/ that not all "search" functionality are equal and that building good search is an art form.

Good luck! I exited the search game because I felt it was a race to the bottom. Elastic was super successful, and has basically made search a commodity, but it's a shitty quality commodity. Developers just throw the data in and call it a day. Relevance is the hard part, and always has been, otherwise we would all still be using AltaVista and Inktomi. LLMs are changing the game though, and real innovation is now happening in search. I want back in.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#49

I'd love to have a search engine for all of my different conversations I've ever had with people through various messaging apps, that combines email and my scanned documents through paperless-ngx and any other PDFs or documents in my nextcloud in a single search interface

I guess it could be a reality if GDPR came with a decent API spec do you could request your personal data algorithmically.

Re: Build a search engine, not a vector DB

#50
post #19

I agree too. My impression is that almost all RAG tutorials _only_ talk about vector DBs, when these are not strictly required for Retrieval Augmented Generation. I'm guessing vector DBs are useful when you have massive amounts of documents on diverse topics. Some gotchas I experienced (but I might be using the wrong embedding/vector DB: spaCy/FAISS): - Short user questions might result a low signal query vector, e.…

Neo4j are mixing vector embeddings with knowledge graphs - https://neo4j.com/generativeai/

Ignoring the disclosure etiquette here, then making an irrelevant rebuttal about relevance when the point was disclosure, then getting snarky with the person who tried to helpfully point it out?

I have no opinion on your products or your post, but some % of people steer away from companies for such things.

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