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Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

wsj.com

41–50 of 149 posts

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#41

"Fed delays have cost consumers hundreds of billions in overdraft fees, check-cashing fees and late fees, said Aaron Klein, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution." Why would banks be incentivized to speed up this process? They make money off the delay and get to blame the Federal government. Its the same reason a purchase can be done instantly but then it takes up-to (10) business days to be refunded. Banks an…

> Being able to make money off the refund is a probable reason why they are even offered.

I think you vastly overestimate the amount of interest a retailer can make on that money vs. the cost of processing the refund, potentially not being able to resell already unpacked goods etc.

Purchases and refunds are also cleared and settled exactly as quickly, i.e. usually on the next business day.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#42
post #30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the parts that don’t scale. For example, some banks specialize in servicing specific communities (e.g., Chinese immigrants). Other banks understand local geographic areas well. For example, they might be able to give you a better rate on financing a gut remodel because they know your contractor does good work and your plans for the remodel will be desirable in a specific neighborhood. It’s hard to do that when…

I hear that argument often, but I’m not convinced. Why should efficient lending decisions somehow be uniquely hard to make in a large corporation with many local branch offices? We’ve seen massive consolidation in mobile phone networks (where local knowledge should arguably matter just as much for where to build the next tower), supermarkets (I’d assume preferences and spending habits to also vary widely), media, and…

>Why should efficient lending decisions somehow be uniquely hard to make in a large corporation with many local branch offices?

Once a bank gets big enough, I think the main issue is risk. The long tail of tiny banks represents a certain customer type that is harder to model in an Excel model and is vetted through personal relationships. Consider one the "big" banks in that long talk - SVB. For a lot of startups getting banking services such ACH, or lending mortgages to founders backed by "paper gains" would be a nightmare for your classically trained big-four bank manager. Conversely, all the work thank bank manager would have to do in winning those deals, likely wouldn't get any benefit from the parent bank except for the bank charter and maybe a small bonus. It's better to be the CEO of a small bank with a highly differentiated order flow, then to fight your exec who lives 1000 miles away that won't let you lend to founder of DropBox because cloud storage isn't a dropdown in their excel spreadsheet.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#43

"Fed delays have cost consumers hundreds of billions in overdraft fees, check-cashing fees and late fees, said Aaron Klein, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution." Why would banks be incentivized to speed up this process? They make money off the delay and get to blame the Federal government. Its the same reason a purchase can be done instantly but then it takes up-to (10) business days to be refunded. Banks an…

Retailers make a significant return on interest? Can you help me identify what keywords I would look for in a P&L to see this?

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#44

This article doesn't really go into much detail, but this shouldn't be surprising. IT in financial services is the most insanely complicated, heavily regulated, mishmash of every technology under the sun going back about 60 years that it's a miracle it works as well as it does. This is also why fintech/insuretech/etc startups tend to fail so spectacularly...because in almost every case they severely underestimate the…

The mishmash of systems and the 50+ years of rules is not something to be proud of, it's a cancer that speaks of incompetence and regulatory capture.

Neither the government nor the banks can compete with tech startups in, well, tech, so they do so with overwrought legislation, nonsense rules, horribly outdated and absurd security practices, and more.

God, everything about the banking industry in the US is such shit. From a complete misunderstanding of the very fundamentals of security to forming a sort of moat with regulation to the government's incompetent inability to actually push FedNow to completion and adoption.

It's just a shameful, massive clusterfuck that describes everything wrong with the government's and the banks' approach to technology.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this shouldn't be surprising Then is it surprising that other nations have had near instant payments for a good while?

No that isn't surprising because those were new buildouts of brand new systems that didn't exist before. In a lot of cases, those countries skipped over a whole bunch of in between phases, like how China skipped over a bunch of telecom infrastructure buildout and so managed to avoid a lot of similar issues there. The US digitalized it's financial industries the earliest and so it has the most pre-existing infrastruct…

… Eh? SEPA Instant is based on, er, SEPA Non-Instant, which itself is based on a bunch of predecessor systems.

I don’t think the US _did_ digitise its financial industry first, did it? That’d be the UK, with Girobank, and BACS; the US ACH system showed up a few years later. Spoiler: the UK has instant payments (FPS is about 15 years old). Eurocheque, a sort of spiritual predecessor to SEPA, showed up the same year as Nacha (though most European countries had their own national systems until the early noughties, when they were largely replaced by SEPA).

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What possible use is there of having so many small banks? This is such a strange question. Having many participants in a market simply means that nobody were able to consistently outcompete the other players. I's like saying, why have 2 million farms in the U.S., when you could just have a few mega cooperations owning all farm land?

Well, you do have a few mega-corporations owning a lot of the land, or at least making big attempts to. The Saudis growing alfalfa in the US desert are a good example of that. It would make more sense for many of those smaller banks to merge locally and compete with much bigger banks in their geography. But the US is odd. Take, for example, the justice system, where very little town has its own police force. In contr…

This is a pretty aggressive stance. The US is rather large and not particularly uniform. In my experience, small banks are better adapted for the needs of these different communities.

I used to bank with large national banks. Their fees were higher, account balance minimums were higher, loans were harder to get (often with higher rates), and their response to customer service issues were to raise their hands and say “sorry, it’s corporate policy.” Their big benefit was that branches were easier to access and they have ATMs everywhere.

I moved to a local credit union and have no interest in ever switching back. They invest in the community. It’s easier to get a loan. It’s easier to appeal to a human. And they simply work with you more. Nowadays they provide essentially everything larger banks do with better service. The only thing I can think where they lack are international wire transfers, where they need to route through a bigger bank. I think I’ve needed to do that once in the past decade.

Regional banks could possibly fill the role small banks do, but we used to have regional banks and they all consolidated throughout the 90s and 00s, presumably to be more profitable, or they sold off to larger banks. Small banks and credit unions do the job regional banks used to but without the mandate to increase profits year over year.

There are plenty examples of American exceptionalism. Providing more customer choices and better service by having more choices in banking is not a stellar example, IMHO. It may complicate rollout like of things like FedNow, but if that’s the cost of having access to a banking system that enhances their communities, I’ll live with the trade-off. On the other hand, I have friends in other countries that despise their bank but have maybe two other options, with essentially no difference between them, so they’re stuck with it.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#47
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia has 4ish banks. The US has 4000. It’s just not the same problem

It's the same problem for the biggest 4 banks. The rest can join the "future" in their own time. It's after the first 4 that you go from trillions to billions in assets. They should have some reasonable pull. 10 should be still a low enough number to make an agreement and effectively make the rest follow or lose out.

The biggest 4 banks ... do support near-instant transfers? Probably in at least three forms each pairwise? I'm not sure why we're pretending the US doesn't have infrastructure for instant transfers, there are like at least four directly supported systems, a couple accidental ones, and a whole host of third-parties in the space, each with a different set of tradeoffs and spotty support.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say it’s one of the more important things to not have as a single point of failure

Sure, yet there are still a small handful of too-big-to-fail banks at the top, and a long tail of too-small-to-upgrade-their-tech-and-processes ones at the bottom. I’d rather have 50 large banks than 5 humongous and 5000 tiny ones from a resilience and efficiency point of view.

> and a long tail of too-small-to-upgrade-their-tech-and-processes ones

Sounds like a business opportunity. Heh, I wonder why the market is so broken that this wasn't fixed yet, there's obviously money in dealing with money.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this shouldn't be surprising Then is it surprising that other nations have had near instant payments for a good while?

No that isn't surprising because those were new buildouts of brand new systems that didn't exist before. In a lot of cases, those countries skipped over a whole bunch of in between phases, like how China skipped over a bunch of telecom infrastructure buildout and so managed to avoid a lot of similar issues there. The US digitalized it's financial industries the earliest and so it has the most pre-existing infrastruct…

Japan has some of the creakiest banking systems dating from the 70's (they used to shut down ATMs for a week over new year not too many years ago, and most people still maintain a paper bank book that gets printed inside the ATM using a dot matrix printer) but they still managed to move over 1000 financial institutions to 24/7 instant payments like 4 years ago once they started getting competition from fintech services.

Re: Why it's taking so long for Americans to get payments instantly

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought so too but the US has so many banks that UPI's 120 don't sound quite as impressive

I don't get the "many banks" angle. Many banks may be too small to implement it. What prevented the biggest 5 or so from implementing it a decade ago and using it as a feature to get more customers? "Bank with us and get quick payments to other good banks" Australia implemented Osko from scratch in 4 years and it took maybe 2 more before every main bank was using it. There's no need to wait for everyone.

They did! At least twice! Politics happened!
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