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A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

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Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#41

Post by liquidpele »

gjulianm wrote: post #31
Helmut10001 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree. On my last job interview, I sat in front of the committee (about 7 to-be colleagues) and the director. I said: > I will only work maximum 30 hours a week. The reason is that I am not productive after 6 hours. It simply does not make sense for you to pay me after 2PM, because I will not do anything productive from 2 to 4PM and you are wasting money. Everyone smiled. Except the director. I still got the po…

To be honest, I don't know if I would have said that. I think that employees in "creative" positions (e.g., you're not serving customers at a bar and need to keep the shop open and working) are paid based on the output they produce. Whether that output is produced in 2, 6 or 8 hours is not really their problem. Looking at it this way, they would have happily paid you 100% of your salary for the same output you're now…

Don’t worry, he didn’t actually say that either. Just another “and everyone clapped” internet story.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#42

Post by 2devnull »

lijok wrote: post #29

Working continuous overtime is one of the worst diseases you can inflict upon your company. 1. By making changes outside of work hours (comitting code as a software dev), you're upsetting your teammates understanding of the state of the project. Ever had on-call push a 200+ LOC change after hours to hot-fix a bug, then had to have a two hour meeting next morning to figure out what changed and how to re-do the fix pro…

I disagree with some of this. I think if you work with international teams, half of the time of day stuff is in play no matter what. But in general I sort of agree that we should all try to work slower/work fewer hours, for the good of society. But we shouldn’t harass those who have more time and interest in the work they’re doing and want to work more, or those who might need more breaks or work most optimally at a slower pace. We should care about workers collectively and individually, I think.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#43

Post by ishtanbul »

zero-sharp wrote: post #40
daniel-s wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn Python, automate your work. Develop a relationship with someone that knows Python, have them automate your work. Alternatively, learn VBA if you live in Word. Alternative 2, just learn to be more proficient with the tools that you use. If there's something that I have discovered it is that many people's office jobs could be automated—or at least much more efficient—if they were developers. Any task that you do…

How will python help him with meetings and emails? This doesn't sound like a technology problem. Not only that, but he's already working crazy hours. And you're suggesting that he spend more time on work? He's asking for ideas on how to make a career transition with the understanding that his salary will most likely get reduced by 90%.

Im looking forward to the msft copilot integration in office that can answer my emails and write transcripts of calls with to-dos. It will save time, but i think it will just up the ante since the culture is what got us here. And the risk of deals failing means you have to work on many at a time and accept as much as 100% swings in comp year to year. I would love to learn python, i figure with chatgpt i can learn it quickly. I learned vba with it and built bigger, crazier financial models but i still work the same amount… even my boss who is 50 is doing the same hrs.

With ai is it even worth it to try to get started in software or robotics? I feel like i will not be able to get a job bc these systems are advancing so fast, they will take the jr jobs first.

Value in my industry is really created from relationships (origination). The modeling and analysis work can probably be automated away with ai in a short time. I’m trying to bring the firm in that direction so that i can manage that.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#44

Post by sinman »

ishtanbul wrote: post #35

Investment banker here. The culture of software/tech better valuing work life balance is alluring. Whats described in the article is pretty alien to me. I typically have 4-6 hours of meetings a day (client calls) and am also expected to do 6+ hours of document/email work a day on top of that. I have to do somewhere between 2-10 hrs of work every weekend. It is impossible to keep up, so i am always disappointing someb…

I think solutions to this are more likely to come out of introspection of what you actually want in life, rather than a clever hack that gets you a high-paying programming job straight away.

Some questions that might be interesting to ask yourself:

- How much money do you actually need? - Are there things beyond money that stop you wanting to be a junior dev (status, networks and friendships, parts of your identity)? - Could you afford to take a year or more off work? If so, would a job where you have a junior dev salary be strictly better than that, financially? - Are there ways you could "actually build something" that would be satisfying to you, that don't require a career jump? For example, maybe there are roles or companies in your current industry that offer better work/life balance (at the cost of some salary) and would allow you time for hobbies. - You don't have to be a developer to work in tech. FAANG are massive companies with all sorts of employees (lawyers, doctors, investors, finance people). Are there roles at the big tech companies that would fit into your existing skill set, where you wouldn't take such a hit to salary? Would those satisfy you, or are you more concerned with changing your day-to-day work?

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#45

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

david-gpu wrote: post #17

The years when I was at my most productive, in terms of outputting the most value for my employer (products, patents, etc), I was doing about three hours of "focus work" a day on average. I simply didn't have the energy to do more than that. The rest of my working hours were spent in low-productivity meetings, low intensity emailing, etc. My performance reviews were consistently top-notch and I was getting promoted a…

A strategy I've used since covid is to go into the office in the morning for my focus work. My mind works best then and I can also satisfy our current requirements for being at the office some of the time. Then I go home at noon, or 1 if I had some momentum on something. Then the afternoon is spent in the mindless teams/zoom/etc meetings and emailing. It's a pretty productive arrangement for me. Though it does break down when people insist on morning meetings. Then I get nothing done.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#47

Post by zero-sharp »

ishtanbul wrote: post #43
zero-sharp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will python help him with meetings and emails? This doesn't sound like a technology problem. Not only that, but he's already working crazy hours. And you're suggesting that he spend more time on work? He's asking for ideas on how to make a career transition with the understanding that his salary will most likely get reduced by 90%.

Im looking forward to the msft copilot integration in office that can answer my emails and write transcripts of calls with to-dos. It will save time, but i think it will just up the ante since the culture is what got us here. And the risk of deals failing means you have to work on many at a time and accept as much as 100% swings in comp year to year. I would love to learn python, i figure with chatgpt i can learn it…

If we started having chatgpt respond to emails in my current job, I would bet that we'd lose all of our clients. I can't imagine automated communication in the context of personalized and nuanced interactions, especially when money is on the line. I'm sure somebody will tell me I'm wrong though...

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#48

Post by liquidpele »

ishtanbul wrote: post #35

Investment banker here. The culture of software/tech better valuing work life balance is alluring. Whats described in the article is pretty alien to me. I typically have 4-6 hours of meetings a day (client calls) and am also expected to do 6+ hours of document/email work a day on top of that. I have to do somewhere between 2-10 hrs of work every weekend. It is impossible to keep up, so i am always disappointing someb…

If you don't already know how to code, then it wouldn't be easy. Development isn't just another kind of job you can get trained for (unless you make very little and do things that would get outsourced). It's a skill that takes time and experience to grow into. That said, it's never "too late" for anything in life, if you find it interesting then try contributing to various github projects or even start your own.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#49

Post by liquidpele »

jimsimmons wrote: post #7

I work in AI research in the Bay Area where hustle culture is strong. OpenAI and hot startups have normalised working long hours and taking few vacations. Hustle is great if you have a well defined, measurable objective. With such an aim it is easy to keep track of your progress over time and maximize your work. But when you want to do research, design great composible systems, be creative, write good code, it is bet…

> I work in AI research in the Bay Area where hustle culture is strong.

Is it? My experience was that it was just all about optics there - 12 hours of "work" but 8 of it is coffee breaks, long lunches, nebulous and unnecessary arch design fitting in tech that makes no sense to have there but that people just wanted to play with...

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#50

Post by ishtanbul »

zero-sharp wrote: post #47
ishtanbul wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im looking forward to the msft copilot integration in office that can answer my emails and write transcripts of calls with to-dos. It will save time, but i think it will just up the ante since the culture is what got us here. And the risk of deals failing means you have to work on many at a time and accept as much as 100% swings in comp year to year. I would love to learn python, i figure with chatgpt i can learn it…

If we started having chatgpt respond to emails in my current job, I would bet that we'd lose all of our clients. I can't imagine automated communication in the context of personalized and nuanced interactions, especially when money is on the line. I'm sure somebody will tell me I'm wrong though...

Yeah, i think about 50% of them require a ton of thought and context. But some do not. If it could draft and just let me approve, i could save hours. This is just jevons paradox though.
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