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Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

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Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#41

Post by obscurette »

crazygringo wrote: post #34
phendrenad2 wrote: post #15

Japanese pop-psychology is funny. Japanese martial arts are all about "learning respect" and children cleaning up their messes is about learning to "respect your surroundings". But what's really happening here is people are gaining agency. In the US, most people seem to believe that they have no control over their environment, so it's fine to litter, for instance, because it's "someone else's job" to clean it up. The…

> an effect you see in the US and European countries is a sense that cleaning up your own messes is low-class At least in the US, I don't think that's the case at all. A lot of people from other countries are genuinely shocked, for example, that "rich Americans" pick up their own dog's poop. Or even bus their own tray in a cafeteria. There are a lot of countries where it's normal to have a maid, for example, where ti…

I think it speaks more about the people from other countries themselves than about the U.S. It's about naive view that if you are really rich, you don't have to do anything yourself. And in the US everyone is really rich from their point of view.

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#42

Post by sinuhe69 »

I grew up in such a culture, and looking back, I have to say that it depends on how you organize it. Most of the time we just hated the job and didn't do it as well as we could. But still, the act of working together was fun. Did we learn to respect our environment or care more about littering? I'm not sure. Maybe kids just don't care about things like that because they find other things more important and exciting.

My children grew up in a much more privileged environment. And their attitude is much worse. They just assume that it is someone else's job to clean up after them. The little one had even played with his grapes in the classroom and when his teacher asked him to clean up, he insolently replied that it was the cleaners' job. Needless to say, we are concerned and are trying to change their attitudes and behavior, but it's easier said than done. So maybe some chores will help.

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#43

Post by minebreaker »

calamari4065 wrote: post #25
minebreaker wrote: post #11

Just a rant. I hated this as a Japanese kid. Why the hell should I clean up the mess created by my classmates? Because kids are supposed to obey their elders. This is the continual tradition to nurture soldiers (literally) from before the war, and even the traumatic defeat hasn't changed that. Embodiment of submissiveness...

>Why the hell should I clean up the mess created by my classmates? Isn't that the entire point? To teach you that the "someone else" who cleans up your mess is actually one of your peers, a person just like you. Asked another way, why the hell should one of your classmates clean up your mess? The answer to both is you shouldn't leave messes for others to clean. Making kids clean up messes from their classmates teache…

Yours and chii's comment make me think that this is a more subtle and cultural thing. I'm a bit surprised that you believe peer pressure works like as expected. (Don't take this as an offense, I'm genuinely surprised).

This is a classic example of 連帯責任(approx. same as collective punishment), which is very common is Japan (and in other countries too, I suppose). This doesn't work, because the mess you make is not the same amount as the others make, and the mess you clean up too. Thus, the system effectively incentivizes you to make more messes and let others clean them up. 正直者が馬鹿を見る(The honest man loses his money).

What actually happens is, some jerk shits, forces others to take care of it, and the jerk never cleans up. In short, your "janitors" are just replaced by poor bullied kids. (I'd rather say, it is a system to bully these kids. I believe you can find some examples from the Imperial Japanese Navy).

If I put my 2 yen, the only system that works is that those who made a mess clean up the mess. A system that can be abused will be abused.

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#44

Post by sottol »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #15

Japanese pop-psychology is funny. Japanese martial arts are all about "learning respect" and children cleaning up their messes is about learning to "respect your surroundings". But what's really happening here is people are gaining agency. In the US, most people seem to believe that they have no control over their environment, so it's fine to litter, for instance, because it's "someone else's job" to clean it up. The…

I don't think it's a power to make a difference thing. I think it's just individualism and self-centeredness, as in "it's not my backyard and I won't see it so whatever, someone else's problem".

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#45

Post by MichaelZuo »

ekianjo wrote: post #14
hilux wrote: post #5

This attitude of shared responsibility, taught from childhood, help to explain the difference between the cleanliness of subways and subway platforms in Japan, and in the US.

Yes and no. You have dirtyness in Japan everywhere too, but they just systematically clean a lot and very often. Public toilets can be cleaned like 10 times a day. This frequency is unseen in the US

Can you link the source? I've never heard before that the average rate was much higher then the average rate in the US.

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#46

Post by defrost »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #45
ekianjo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. You have dirtyness in Japan everywhere too, but they just systematically clean a lot and very often. Public toilets can be cleaned like 10 times a day. This frequency is unseen in the US

Can you link the source? I've never heard before that the average rate was much higher then the average rate in the US.

The bullet train is obviously an exception .. or is it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt92-ZDm-HM

Cleaned end to end in seven minutes at every turn around.

https://www.japanlivingguide.com/living-in-japan/culture/jap...

How Japanese Clean Train Stations & Public Toilets https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=BM2I1OrGAvM

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#47

Post by cameldrv »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #15

Japanese pop-psychology is funny. Japanese martial arts are all about "learning respect" and children cleaning up their messes is about learning to "respect your surroundings". But what's really happening here is people are gaining agency. In the US, most people seem to believe that they have no control over their environment, so it's fine to litter, for instance, because it's "someone else's job" to clean it up. The…

I wouldn't say I agree with this for the U.S., and Europe is a big place, but at least in Germany this is not true. In fact for example, in many apartment buildings, instead of having cleaners for the common areas, the residents are put on a rotation, and when it's your turn you have to sweep the stairs etc.

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#48

Post by ProxCoques »

caslon wrote: post #36
macksd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a 12-year-old should be eating deep fried French fries as a regular part of a school lunch either... Nothing wrong with a sandwich.

In terms of raw calorie count, which is the major contributor to the American obesity crisis, french fries probably pale in comparison to a sandwich, while being dramatically more filling.

I doubt you'd eat only french fries for a meal though. A sandwich and an apple might be 700 calories, but a 300 calorie portion of fries with something less than 400 would be a challenge.

Re: Should children clean their own schools? Japan thinks so

#49

Post by ProxCoques »

meragrin_ wrote: post #39
Waterluvian wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burning the trash?

A little bit more detail is needed to understand the question. I find it hard to believe you are unaware that people burn trash.

I've never seen anyone burn domestic trash. Like in their back garden or something? Is that a thing?
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