How China is tearing down Islam – FT • Hacker News Board

Re: How China is tearing down Islam – FT

#41

Post by abletonlive » Mon, Dec 04, 2023, 1:43 AM UTC

thsksbd wrote: post #29

abletonlive wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Far-right wing Catholic who wants to stop muslim immigration into Europe [1] here: If you don't think islamophobia is real, and used to manipulate Western populations, you're delusional. The US is very scary right now and, in some circles, I only mention my wife's religious background with a dash of courage. It helps that we both obviously despise coastal liberals though. 1. Ironically married to a muslim European.

Big distinction to make here.

It's not that I don't think islamophobia isn't real, I don't think islam"ophobia" is a problem. Every religion deserves to be criticized, especially when they have values that don't align with the free world.

I will sit here all night and talk about how the catholic church has a pedophilia and sexual abuse problem, and also sit here all night talking about the subjugation of women and jihadist ideas are rampant because of islam.

Can you see how your perspective is a little presumptuous? By calling it "islamophobia" you've skipped the part where we discuss if it's a problem or not - you've already assumed any dislike of islam is a bad thing.

Re: How China is tearing down Islam – FT

#42

Post by abletonlive » Mon, Dec 04, 2023, 1:52 AM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #35

abletonlive wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The traditional terms for "catholicphobic" inlude "anti-Catholic", "anti-papist", and "anti-clerical". Take https://www.monticello.org/research-education/for-scholars/i... as an example: "Thomas Jefferson’s well known anti-clericalism is generally treated as part of his advocacy for intellectual freedom, but it is also a sign of his participation in a much broader culture of anti-popery. Evan Haefeli will set Jeffers…

You're completely missing the point. No liberal is going to sit here and talk about how we are anticatholic for talking about sexual abuse in the catholic church, but they certainly will say "islamophobia" if we start criticizing islam because of jihadists, the subjugation of women, and the treatment of LGBTQ. Suddenly it's "not all muslims" and such...

Re: How China is tearing down Islam – FT

#43

Post by abletonlive » Mon, Dec 04, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #26

discard129 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that this isn’t a contradiction of the criticism of your use of it.

Google's definition is "dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force." which means exactly what I intended. Perhaps I don't understand the criticism -- it's supposed to be some sort of culture war thing? I'm using the normal, well-established word for this phenomenon. If you dislike the word, take it up with Oxford, I guess.

You definitely don't get it. Why is disliking islam a problem and why should that be downvoted?

Re: How China is tearing down Islam – FT

#44

Post by eesmith » Tue, Dec 05, 2023, 11:15 AM UTC

abletonlive wrote: post #42

eesmith wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The traditional terms for "catholicphobic" inlude "anti-Catholic", "anti-papist", and "anti-clerical". Take https://www.monticello.org/research-education/for-scholars/i... as an example: "Thomas Jefferson’s well known anti-clericalism is generally treated as part of his advocacy for intellectual freedom, but it is also a sign of his participation in a much broader culture of anti-popery. Evan Haefeli will set Jeffers…

You're completely missing the point. No liberal is going to sit here and talk about how we are anticatholic for talking about sexual abuse in the catholic church, but they certainly will say "islamophobia" if we start criticizing islam because of jihadists, the subjugation of women, and the treatment of LGBTQ. Suddenly it's "not all muslims" and such...

We certainly can criticize jihadists without criticizing Islam in exactly the same way we can criticize participants of the Protestant/Catholic conflicts in (Northern) Ireland without criticizing the Catholic or Anglican churches, much less all Anglicans and Catholics.

The Islamophobia accusation comes in when people, for example, want to expel all non-citizen Muslims because of what a small number of jihaddists thousands of miles away did, or want to "bomb the region back to the Stone Age" for the same reason.

Where are the calls to expel all Catholic foreign residents because of systemic sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Where are the calls to nuke the Vatican? We should see far more of those if your two cases were really parallel, and were that so we would be hearing a lot of "not all Catholics."

My point is that we already use "anti-Catholic" what you describe as "Catholicphobic". The English Reformation era was DEEPLY anti-Catholic, and far more violent towards recusants than Islamophobia in the modern US, with some executed for their Catholic faith.

And yet we use the term "anti-Catholic", not "Catholicphobic" for that situation.

(To further muddy the waters, "jihad" has multiple meanings and you are using a particularly Western interpretation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad points out "Most Western writers consider external jihad to have primacy over inner jihad in the Islamic tradition, while much of contemporary Muslim opinion favors the opposite view.[19]" Consider how US soldiers use "haji" has a slur when for Muslims it is an honorific title. Further, consider how George W. Bush called US action after 9/11 a "crusade" - a reference to a series of Christian military actions.)