related is the notion of "steam engine time". here's a nice blog post explaining the concept: https://kk.org/thetechnium/steam-engine-ti/
Everything I've read about the development of the steam engine says that concept of "steam engine time" is fundamentally wrong.
The origins of the steam engine
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Re: The origins of the steam engine
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everything I've read about the development of the steam engine says that concept of "steam engine time" is fundamentally wrong.
how so? it seems to make intuitive sense that you needed a whole raft of supporting technologies to make the slowly rising curve of proto-steam-engine development suddenly hit an inflection point and spread the invention everywhere in a relatively short span. "steam engine time" is simply when all those things were in place and you could make a practical, cost-effective steam engine.
The link you gave has different interpretations. Gibson said "there was nothing technically stopping the Romans from building big steam engines" while the commenter says "The Romans had the idea of steam engines, but not of strong iron to contain the pressure, nor valves to regulate it, nor the cheap fuel to power it."
You apparently disagree with Gibson's characterization.
The original 1931 claim gives a third; "A social growth cannot find out the use of steam engines, until comes steam-engine-time"
However, As Anton Howes (co-author of the linked-to page) argues at https://www.ageofinvention.xyz/p/age-of-invention-why-wasnt-... , steam engines came decades after the pieces were available, and well after initial uses (like pumping water from a mine) were conceived of, and where there would have been social growth had they been available:
> So why did it then take almost another half a century, even with the increasingly widespread understanding of atmospheric pressure and vacuums, for a widely-adopted and practical atmospheric engine like Thomas Savery’s to appear?
> The answer, I think, is what it almost always is: that inventors are simply extremely rare. People can have all the incentives, all the materials, all the mechanical skills, and even all the right general notions of how things work. As we’ve seen, even Savery himself was apparently inspired by the same ancient experiment as everyone else who worked on thermometers, weather-glasses, egg incubators, solar-activated fountains, and perpetual motion machines. But because people so rarely try to improve or invent things, the low-hanging fruit can be left on the tree for decades or even centuries.
> The development of the steam engine, rather than being a story of the Torricellian vacuum science unlocking a new technology, is instead just like that of textile machinery, signalling systems, and any number of other “ideas behind their time.” The rate at which such inventions appear is really down to the number of people applying themselves to improvement, and the strange-seeming delays are down to there so often being so few. When only a handful of people are inventors, is it really any wonder that the circumstantial setbacks and distractions that prevented a Petty or a Kalthoff can end up delaying things for decades?
Re: The origins of the steam engine
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
As were most if not all the other steamships of that era; compound steam engines were already over a century old by then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_steam_engine
Comments like these are the reason that I still read hacker news. I can come to a thread, and almost always there will be somebody replying with extra information on the topic at hand. Thank you.
Re: The origins of the steam engine
#44The Greeks made a sort of "toy" that spins when a fire boiled water. It's almost a shame that no one took it a step further. Imagine ancient Greece and Rome entering a steam age in the 1st or 2nd century.
Here on HN I read about the theory, that one of the main reasons that the time of the steam engines came, was the rise of the cannon. Over generations, every king wanted to have the best cannons as that translated into power - and once you can build a cannon, you can build something that can contain high pressures and give that pressure a direction. In other words, to take that toy further, they would have also had t…
Regardless, it's a fun hypothetical to think of an ancient Roman and Greek steam age.
Re: The origins of the steam engine
#45Here's my theory: yes, absolutely.
Technologies evolve for either military use or non-military use. Military technologies are subject to evolutionary pressures that are easily 100 to 1000 times higher than non-military technologies. An iron plow will do a better job than a wooden plow, but in the end it's just a matter of slightly increased productivity. But an iron sword vs a wooden alternative, that's life and death.
Military technologies, throughout ages, evolved many times faster than civilian ones. Do you think the technology to make an iron sword is harder, or simpler than the technology to distill spirits? Obviously harder, maybe 100 times so. Yet, swords appeared 5000 years ago, spirits about 1000 years ago. The Romans developed a huge industrial base capable of churning hundreds of thousands of "lorica segmentata" armors, yet, their technology when it came to textile dyes was absolutely pathetic. Etc, etc.
My point is the steam engine emerged as a civilian technology, not a military one. Once it matured, it powered battleships, so it obviously acquired a military relevance, but in the times of Watt, it was definitely civilian.
But could we have lived in an alternate history where the steam engine appeared as a military technology? If so, then it could have evolved many times faster, and I contend that I can see a scenario where the Romans (well, the Eastern Roman empire) could have initiated an industrial revolution. Centered around oil (petroleum), not coal. Hint: they possessed the Greek fire, a fundamental military technology. For some reason the Greek fire disappeared, and history evolved fire weapons starting with cannons. But it's entirely reasonable to think the fire weapons evolved out of Greek fire (i.e. flamethrowers), and this would have stimulated a healthy trade in petroleum, 1000 years before the real history.
Re: The origins of the steam engine
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here on HN I read about the theory, that one of the main reasons that the time of the steam engines came, was the rise of the cannon. Over generations, every king wanted to have the best cannons as that translated into power - and once you can build a cannon, you can build something that can contain high pressures and give that pressure a direction. In other words, to take that toy further, they would have also had t…
Hmm, I don't think Savery's engine would have required that - it's just a copper vessel, and the pipes were often even made of wood. I've often seen the cannon theory applied to piston-using engines, but that was the next stage with Papin and Newcomen and beyond (hopefully our chapter II)
"Second, the next stage of the process required high-pressure steam to force the water up, and the pump's soldered joints were barely capable of withstanding high pressure steam and needed frequent repair."