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Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

nps.gov

41–50 of 64 posts

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#41

Interesting that the US NPS leaves completely un-noted the description of a thief as a half-breed. Some of Roosevelt’s other commentary on Native Americans: “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.” Perhaps even now the NPS can’t help but turn a blind eye to the less…

Assuming a historical figure wasn’t racist feels like a bad default. I don’t think it’s necessary to point out racism in every hagiography.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#42

Interesting that the US NPS leaves completely un-noted the description of a thief as a half-breed. Some of Roosevelt’s other commentary on Native Americans: “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.” Perhaps even now the NPS can’t help but turn a blind eye to the less…

don't try to apply modern moral standards on historical figures

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#43
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or people in other countries are actually glad that the risk of being shot are minimal while still being safe

Crime exists everywhere on different scales. The genie is out of the bottle so to speak in the US, so gun control on a scale that brings America in line with other countries while also keeping citizen's rights and safety intact is imho not so much possible anymore. Does not feel like there is a good black and white answer to that, I would say the risk of being shot while not committing crimes is quite minimal in the…

You might say that but it is certainly incorrect compared to other countries. Have a look at mass shooting statistics across countries just as one example. Those victims are not committing crimes.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#44
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or people in other countries are actually glad that the risk of being shot are minimal while still being safe

Crime exists everywhere on different scales. The genie is out of the bottle so to speak in the US, so gun control on a scale that brings America in line with other countries while also keeping citizen's rights and safety intact is imho not so much possible anymore. Does not feel like there is a good black and white answer to that, I would say the risk of being shot while not committing crimes is quite minimal in the…

You could easily find news about a lot of cases when a child shot on playground in US.

That is impossible in EU.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that a thief would have to pay for their crimes with their life, either because anyone could be armed and its legal to protect your property with lethal force, or the government would punish repeated theft with death, I think would be enough to deter most people from doing so. It's the fact that a jail/prison sentence is meaningless to most criminals (if they're even sent there), that we have such rampant…

I don't really think so. In the middle ages, punishments for all sorts of crimes were pretty severe--but partly because the vast majority of crime would go unsolved. If you're a peasant in the middle ages and some valuables go missing, who's going to track that down for you? It's not happening unless you know for sure it was your neighbor or something. So yeah, when they would catch a thief they would receive some pr…

Another point is that inequality also drives petty theft, especially in the Middle Ages. People don’t tend to commit petty theft because they want to. For a modern example, see https://jacobin.com/2022/02/mainstream-media-news-shopliftin...

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really think so. In the middle ages, punishments for all sorts of crimes were pretty severe--but partly because the vast majority of crime would go unsolved. If you're a peasant in the middle ages and some valuables go missing, who's going to track that down for you? It's not happening unless you know for sure it was your neighbor or something. So yeah, when they would catch a thief they would receive some pr…

Another point is that inequality also drives petty theft, especially in the Middle Ages. People don’t tend to commit petty theft because they want to. For a modern example, see https://jacobin.com/2022/02/mainstream-media-news-shopliftin...

[deleted]

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#47
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sorry I should have been more clear about that in my initial post. I would not condone someone going out and explicitly seeking violence after the fact.

The thief has your box of savings and are walking away. You recognise the thief, and can give the police its name. You happen to have a gun. Are you morraly permitted to commit violence to stop the thief? And how does this violence compare to the violence you can commit to the vage thief?

I am entitled to a citizens arrest of the suspect, with all the liability that implies for myself if I am wrong.

If the subject refuses to comply, then enough physical violence to restrain them until police arrive or at least my property is returned is absolutely warranted. No more violence than this though, and it's a very subjective line. If I end up being wrong about it being my property, I am in some serious shit if I decide to go down this route.

This whole meme that you can do whatever you want to my property and you can't do anything about it is just silly. It's not reality for most of humanity, and is a very small bubble in western history so far.

I'm doing fine in life now so my bar for this is far higher. However at much more desperate times in my life, stealing the tools out of my truck would have been existential and I would have fought anyone I caught stealing them to the death if required. It's a huge amount of privilege to say property doesn't matter and can easily be replaced.

I also have in the past showed up at thieves homes to retrieve my stolen property - luckily no violence was ever needed, and I had no plans to engage in it going into those situations. The vast majority of the time if you confront such a thief they will instantly give up because they are simply not used to any pushback whatsoever from victims (or anyone at all whatsoever these days).

Was this likely a stupid personal decision for my own safety? Yep. But it was the only decision you can make if you actually care about society. We are seeing the results of too many people making the rational personal choice at the expense of the greater good today.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#48
post #5
post #4

> The men he was chasing were armed and dangerous. How might you have reacted to the theft of a replaceable boat when capturing the thieves was so time-consuming and dangerous? This might sound a bit self-helpy but I've found one of the best indicators of a great people is their passion for caring about things most other people wouldn't bother to put effort into and then turning that basic caring into something bigge…

The notion of objects being replaceable and therefore you shouldn't do much when they're taken is.. I think?... an invention of risk departments at modern corporations. Like sure if you're a department store you don't want to risk your employees getting hurt stopping a shoplifter, the downside far exceeds the upside. But as a person ? That's your stuff, and it makes total sense to want it , not a replacement, and to…

True but there's also been apocryphal stories of burglars suing homeowners for injury on their property when stealing their stuff.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest category of property theft in the US is wage theft. Are workers justified to use threat of lethal force to regain stolen wages from their employers?

Well, I have some Appalachian ancestry so I might be skewed redneck[0] here, but sometimes yes. Or at least a good whooping. There’s an old bit from some comedian (Chris Rock?) that everyone should get one free smack on someone annually, maybe that’s a good line? As a young, starry eyed entrepreneur living in the city I got in on a startup as Employee #1, built the entire company from scratch. Worked insane overtime,…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Hunger_March

I asked the question provocatively for OP to consider their suggestion but I understand the defensive need for workers to arm themselves in American history within living memory, many such cases where capital and state and organized crime all banding together against workers with extreme violence to coerce them antagonistically. Not to mention the ongoing modern cases of American business putting hits on workers abroad as a form of union negotiation

Workers in America have softened and given up their power in decades since but these conditions could easily return domestically, where it’s not just a fair wage being sought but survival under direct attack

Re: Teddy Roosevelt pursues the boat thieves (2015)

#50
Background...

1) Great read: "Roosevelt in the Bad Lands", by Hermann Hagedorn. Boston and New York Houghton Mifflin Company, The Riverside Press Cambridge 1921, Copyright 1921 by Hermann Hagedorn, available at https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24317/24317-h/24317-h.htm

2) Some modern photos of the country there, plus my own random thoughts: "Moody, hey?" at https://ultralighter.blogspot.com/2017/10/moody-hey.html

I like the story of Roosevelt in a Montana bar. When a local cowboy came up to him with revolver drawn, mortally offended that some Fancy Eastern Dude would actually show his face in that establishment while WEARING EYEGLASSES of all things, Roosevelt stood, faced the man, KO'd him with one punch to the face, and got the upvotes of all assembled.

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