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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#41

Post by beowulfey »

wsgeorge wrote: post #21

Off topic: this is my first time hearing of rinse aids. It really feels odd (to me) that such a thing would exist. I thought we all just used water and a napkin. I also have no experience with dishwashers, so how different is dishwater detergent from regular dishwashing soap?

Rinse aid is a dishwasher-specific product. It “helps” by removing residual soap and water spots from a dishwasher cycle.

I use a brand of dishwasher tabs that are supposed to be more “natural” and never use rinse aid, to no ill effect. Personally I think the normal tablets and rinse aid are specifically designed to be used together.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#42

Post by [deleted] »

Two4 wrote: post #33
hughesjj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

you microwaved a steak?!!

[deleted]

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#43

Post by glitchc »

hughesjj wrote: post #32
indigo0086 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lesson in that first few sentences. Of course eating out is risky as it's a black box where you get food for putting money in it. You're not guaranteed quality or safety in the more subtle sense

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

That's called the sous la vie style of cooking, gaining popularity in busy North American households every decade.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#45

Post by GuB-42 »

mathgeek wrote: post #9
danw1979 wrote: post #2

Get yourself a big old tub of anhydrous citric acid from Amazon or wherever, make up a 10% solution and use that in place of rinse aid. Just check with your dishwasher manufacturer that it’s not going to cause issues first. I got a new Miele unit a few months ago and the manual specifically advises the use of such a solution, with caution not to make it any stronger. It’s been working like a charm.

What are the advantages over plain vinegar? Been using that my whole life without any concern beyond wanting to avoid expensive rinse aids.

Besides chemical properties, citric acid may turn out to be cheaper, especially if bought in large quantities.

But in the end, I think the cost savings of citric vs vinegar vs rinse aid is negligible. Usage should be about 5mL per wash (matches my experience), and even if you use fancy rinse aid, it is still a small fraction of the costs of running a dishwasher.

Note that the article is concerned about professional dishwashers, they didn't reproduce their findings on household dishwashers. Professional dishwashers are very different from household dishwashers, and they use much higher concentration of detergent and rinse aid.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#46

Post by danw1979 »

heftig wrote: post #20
danw1979 wrote: post #2

Get yourself a big old tub of anhydrous citric acid from Amazon or wherever, make up a 10% solution and use that in place of rinse aid. Just check with your dishwasher manufacturer that it’s not going to cause issues first. I got a new Miele unit a few months ago and the manual specifically advises the use of such a solution, with caution not to make it any stronger. It’s been working like a charm.

Does it have to be anhydrous? Seems like a waste to go for the more expensive stuff when you're going to dissolve it anyway. Food-grade citric acid monohydrate should be cheaper.

The manual just said a citric acid solution so I guess whatever source will do. I suppose it’s just as easy to get a reasonably accurate concentration if you account for the water already present in monohydrate.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#47

Post by steveBK123 »

hughesjj wrote: post #32
indigo0086 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lesson in that first few sentences. Of course eating out is risky as it's a black box where you get food for putting money in it. You're not guaranteed quality or safety in the more subtle sense

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself.

On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever.

Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was contaminated.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#48

Post by garblegarble »

danw1979 wrote: post #2

Get yourself a big old tub of anhydrous citric acid from Amazon or wherever, make up a 10% solution and use that in place of rinse aid. Just check with your dishwasher manufacturer that it’s not going to cause issues first. I got a new Miele unit a few months ago and the manual specifically advises the use of such a solution, with caution not to make it any stronger. It’s been working like a charm.

I've found rinse aids that include citric acid end up pitting stainless steel cutlery over time, so I avoid them

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#49

Post by ahartmetz »

sschueller wrote: post #22
r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

Yes but isn't this even worse? I can control what I use at home. I can't when I eat or drink out. So I get to pick between PFAS soaked throwaway single use cardboard cups or epithelial barrier damaging glass/ceramic ware.

Not a general solution by far, but for takeaway coffee I like to use a reCup reusable plastic cup: https://recup.de/mehrwegbecher/ that I never exchange and wash myself - Germany only so far, but you might find a similar product. Some places give a small discount for bringing your own cup.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#50

Post by chiefalchemist »

r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

> When individual components of the rinse aid were investigated separately, alcohol ethoxylates elicited a strong toxic and barrier-damaging effect.

To clarify a bit, it's not professional dishwashers (the machines) but the soap / chemicals used for commercial dishwashing. Minor but important when thinking about the broader problem.

Mind you, it gets diluted but those end up in the water supply, as does many other knows and unknowns. For me, the question has not be what effect does Compound X or Compound Y have individually, but when in the wild what happens when you combine A to Z+? Then what?

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