My company's goal seems to be to hire every Indian south of Hyderabad. I do wonder when Americans are going to wake up and realize these high-paying jobs could be going to them.
Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
41–50 of 275 posts
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#42It says Apple agreed to pay the fine, but does this mean they will actually stop discriminating in their hiring?
The DOJ wants them to allow electronic submission of applications to PERM jobs and to publish these jobs anywhere they publish other jobs. Apple agreed to this and to train their relevant employees about the issue for three years. The article doesn't come right out and say it, but the case seems to have turned on PERM jobs being only available when there isn't a citizen/refugee/permanent-resident available to fill th…
From what I’ve seen, often these jobs already have a candidate in mind and the “post the job listing” is a pro forma requirement. So this is the government forcing the company through extra checklist that will end up in the exact same candidate being hired anyway.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#43Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…
You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists.
PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works.
It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k all in. PERM Fees to USCIS are around $1200.
The whole system is abused to the end and need to be completely gutted and redone so high end engineer working for Google making $700k was differentiated from Wipro employee making $80k. Right now they are in the same queue. Prevailing wage is a joke as it does not include stock options and does not reflect real salary levels.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#44Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…
>PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process
It's not rigorous or demanding; it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank. From the article : It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions," the DOJ said.
>Apple actually felt it was worth it
Apple doesn't feel. It's just commonsense and market pressure. The alternative would be indefinite indentured servitude.
Dept. of Labor takes a year to evaluate these PERM applications. PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense. All while the employee is already working for the company on a visa. The whole thing is farcical.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#45Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…
> there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B.
> Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the PERM process applies when H1B holders seek to gain permanent residency too - at least that's been my experience. It also applies to the L1 etc:
https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transitio...
PERM certification is required to get a GC on an H1B (it's not needed to get an H1B, just required when the H1B holder seeks to get permanent residency).
There's another side to this story that the media reporting almost never mentions on this; many in the PERM process have lived in the USA for a long time and established families, children, communities etc. To deny them during PERM literally means in many cases to ship them and their American children "home" to a country they may not have seen for 20 years. In some cases the American kids won't even be able to speak the main language of their parent's birth country.
The solution as always is pretty simple - we need to divorce immigration status from employment - the processes should not be linked. This would at a stroke remove incentives for less scrupulous employers to abuse the system too.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#46I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.
Weren't Apple one of the ringleaders in the conspiracy to suppress wages between the large tech companies a few years back?
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Work visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.
I thought an H1B is a dual-intent visa and has a documented path towards permanent residency. Does it not?
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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Work visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.
I thought an H1B is a dual-intent visa and has a documented path towards permanent residency. Does it not?
Dual-intent just means that you're allowed to be interested in permanent residency. If you have a B-2 visitor visa, for example, customs won't let you into the country if you tell them you're hoping to stay. The actual process of permanent residency has to come from a separate program, such as the PERM one Apple used here.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#49I'm sure many US-based tech companies can be blamed for preferring the cheaper option ... I would think our visa process plays no small part here, further the lax compliance on what "special skillset" means in the case of H-* visas. The system allows it, why not take advantage of such.
Work visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.
I would argue path to PR on humanitarian grounds, but not citizen centric ones. It's probably ideal from a citizen's perspective to be like Dubai and attract talent with easy professional temp visas and then shitcan them the second they run out of money or become inconvenient.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#50I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.
> Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries.
Apple is a publicly traded company whose shareholders would not tolerate overpaying for labor.
Further: Apple was caught colluding with other major tech industry employers with regards to hiring/salary.
So please do go on about how Apple doesn't care about labor costs.
And also, look at the wages and benefits for Apple Store employees which are shit for the level of technical expertise they're expected to have and the products they're selling (there's usually at least some correlation between compensation and the cost of goods being sold - obviously not anything approaching linearity.)
Then look at how Apple store staff are starting to unionize, much to the terror of their Head of Retail, who likely makes half a million dollars a year in cash compensation alone - $250/hour, which is more than ten times the base wage for a retail employee (supposedly now $22/hour.)
Your naivete is pretty stunning. There isn't a single corporate employer on the planet who doesn't do everything they can to minimize labor costs.