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It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

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Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#41

Post by epups »

Let me play devil's advocate here.

Remote work is about trust. The biggest fear for the employer is that you are slacking off, because they cannot physically see if you're even there. If an employer realizes that you have accepted another full time job contract they would feel cheated, even if your output is excellent. I worry that the rational position for the employer would be to try to force their next hire to not be fully remote, and to try to implement more measures to monitor and control the existing remote positions.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#42

Post by Veserv »

Nextgrid wrote: post #6
argiopetech wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the master/slave relationship isn't the best metaphor for voluntary employment...

It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Sure, the slavery is "distributed" across multiple actors such as landlords & profit off the whole concept of property as an asset, but ultimately the net result is the same - you have to work just to be afforded shelter. The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slav…

The qualitative difference between slavery and a job is that a slave is not allowed to choose a better option if one is available. A slave is barred from taking higher paid work, work with better conditions, etc. Even if it would be beneficial for their master (e.g. they do higher value work and all of the money goes to their master) they do not have the freedom to choose. A slave does not have the freedom to improve their circumstances even if it is a win-win situation. That is the qualitative difference between slavery and a job.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#43

Post by gamblor956 »

Nextgrid wrote: post #2

"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…

Slaves were forced to work all day in the sun without shade performing brutal physical labor. They were forced to work in the rain without cover, in the snow without protection from the cold. In mines, and in other dangerous jobs where injuries were frequently fatal. They were beaten regularly for all sorts of stupid and made up reasons. They were raped. And tortured. And murdered. They were bought and sold like things, and children were torn from their parents because they were just things.

To call one of the cushiest jobs that has ever existed in human history "slavery" because of some minor restrictions on your ability to make even more money on the side...I don't even have the words to describe just how ridiculous you come across right now.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#44

Post by bmulcahy »

gamblor956 wrote: post #43
Nextgrid wrote: post #2

"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…

Slaves were forced to work all day in the sun without shade performing brutal physical labor. They were forced to work in the rain without cover, in the snow without protection from the cold. In mines, and in other dangerous jobs where injuries were frequently fatal. They were beaten regularly for all sorts of stupid and made up reasons. They were raped. And tortured. And murdered. They were bought and sold like thin…

I think you've made a mistake. Their comment was not meant to be understood literally. Their intended meaning was obvious to me.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#45

Post by flashgordon »

takinola wrote: post #35
flashgordon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Ive also noticed a lot of former faang VPs now trying to become influencers on LinkedIn by sharing the "internals" of big co promotion and other processes. Amazing they would never talk about this while in the role but suddenly they are now ultra generous! Don't get me wrong. The revealings are actually pretty spot on but timing is very dubious!

I don't think cynicism explains why an exec would not share the "internals" of the organization they are currently in. They are in a position of trust which has the expectation of not sharing said "internals". Betraying that trust would, rightfully, cause them to be sanctioned. Once they are out of the position, they have the option to divulge or not so some choose to do so.

Definitely not cynicism. The other way even. There is a definite amount of sociopathy and Kool aid selling needed as you guys higher up the ladder. You are a bit free from it when you leave the ladder. And forget real altruism, there is an element of perceived altruism when you look like you are "spilling the beans".

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#46

Post by xkekjrktllss »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #26
Nextgrid wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. > where things like housing construction, which require labor to exist That's why I mentioned land and not only housing. I…

> Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. Irrelevant. The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that…

> The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that because employers have to compete for labor.

Wrong. Profiteers learned ages ago the importance of wielding their capital for political influence to maintain a stagnant pool of unemployed surplus labor by many means, including the prison industrial complex, migrant trafficking, and more. The result is that employers do not compete for mere labor but rather only for specifically skilled labor, meaning unskilled labor is only legally differentiated from slavery and effectively just slavery. Furthermore, most of these so-called unskilled laborers are in fact highly skilled surplus of the skilled labor market, which means the same holds true for a significant portion of the so-called skilled labor pool.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#47

Post by hateful »

I read an article linked off HN about how the reason that companies want you to come back to the office is because they want to have control over you - rather than them wanting to have the output you provide (I'm wording that wrong and wish I could find the article to quote it). But I think that's very related to this.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#48

Post by argiopetech »

itishappy wrote: post #40
Nextgrid wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Sure, the slavery is "distributed" across multiple actors such as landlords & profit off the whole concept of property as an asset, but ultimately the net result is the same - you have to work just to be afforded shelter. The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slav…

Plantations aren't free either. Slaves need to be managed else they will all leave and the owners starve (or worse). I guess slaves, slave owners, and software engineers are all pretty much the same when you think about it.

One might say that we're all subject to "the human condition".

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#49

Post by argiopetech »

Nextgrid wrote: post #33
seti0Cha wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only addressed the lighthearted part of my response. I'd be much more interested in your reaction to my main point - you appear to be defining slavery as having to care for yourself. Surely you do not believe that you are owed a life of leisure do you?

> Surely you do not believe that you are owed a life of leisure do you? I believe shelter and basic necessities should be a human right. So many problems would be solved/improved if people didn't have to spend half (or more, for the lower classes) of their earnings on perpetually renting.

You may believe that, but there has to be a means to that end (preferably one that doesn't require the oppression of others).

Shelter has to be built on a property and maintained indefinitely, food has to be painstakingly extracted from the land, etc. People have to do that, because there is no extant alternative.

Ignoring land ownership for now, are the maintainers and farmers not to be compensated? That would be actual slavery.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#50

Post by AnthonyMouse »

xkekjrktllss wrote: post #46
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. Irrelevant. The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that…

> The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that because employers have to compete for labor. Wrong. Profiteers learned ages ago the importance of wielding their capital for political influence to maintain a stagnant pool of unemployed surplus labor by many means, including the prison industrial complex, migrant trafficking, and more. The result is that emp…

> meaning unskilled labor is only legally differentiated from slavery and effectively just slavery.

Many unskilled labor jobs also pay more than the law requires, and there is basically unlimited demand for unskilled labor at low wages, so there is only a problem if the cost of living is higher than the wages unskilled labor receives in the market -- which in nearly all cases is because of artificial scarcity of necessities. Because otherwise the low wages would result in a low cost of living as necessities could be produced inexpensively through cheap labor.

If you let millions migrants come to the US to build housing and provide medical care and consequently made housing and medicine inexpensive, unskilled laborers in the US would be better off, not worse off. If you artificially limit the supply of those things so the cost of living remains high, you're screwed regardless of whether there are immigrants, because a marginal difference in the wages for unskilled labor doesn't hold a candle to a ten fold increase in the cost of living.

> Furthermore, most of these so-called unskilled laborers are in fact highly skilled surplus of the skilled labor market

There is rarely a long-term surplus of skilled labor -- or anything -- because that would just cause it to cost less, increasing demand (companies hire more) or reducing supply (people switch careers to ones that pay better).

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