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Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

nature.com

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Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#41

Post by Retric »

aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

At atmospheric pressure Ammonia liquifies at −28 °F (−33.3 °C), Hydrogen −423.17 °F (−252.87 °C). That alone is a vast improvement. You can build a car/boat/aircraft that keeps its Ammonia fuel tank cool with minimal effort however it’s wildly impractical with hydrogen.

Add the issues with hydrogen embrittlement and Ammonia starts to look trivial by comparison. People deal with industrial quantities of Ammonia on a regular basis without significant issues. Hell even gasoline and diesel are toxic and can be quite dangerous

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#42

Post by aifooh7Keew6xoo »

PumpkinSpice wrote: post #38
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses.…

It is certainly easier to liquefy, I can't argue that point.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#43

Post by aifooh7Keew6xoo »

Retric wrote: post #41
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

At atmospheric pressure Ammonia liquifies at −28 °F (−33.3 °C), Hydrogen −423.17 °F (−252.87 °C). That alone is a vast improvement. You can build a car/boat/aircraft that keeps its Ammonia fuel tank cool with minimal effort however it’s wildly impractical with hydrogen. Add the issues with hydrogen embrittlement and Ammonia starts to look trivial by comparison. People deal with industrial quantities of Ammonia on a r…

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/attempt-to-pass-a-tank...

No, they have significant issues on a regular basis still.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#44

Post by Retric »

aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #43
Retric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At atmospheric pressure Ammonia liquifies at −28 °F (−33.3 °C), Hydrogen −423.17 °F (−252.87 °C). That alone is a vast improvement. You can build a car/boat/aircraft that keeps its Ammonia fuel tank cool with minimal effort however it’s wildly impractical with hydrogen. Add the issues with hydrogen embrittlement and Ammonia starts to look trivial by comparison. People deal with industrial quantities of Ammonia on a r…

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/attempt-to-pass-a-tank... No, they have significant issues on a regular basis still.

Anything dangerous at scale has issues. That doesn’t mean people are unwilling to fill up at a gas station or use other hydrocarbon fuels despite plenty of far worse examples. https://www.npr.org/2021/11/06/1053162519/sierra-leone-oil-t...

And plenty of more recent examples: https://www.fox29.com/news/tanker-truck-fire-closes-stretch-...

Ammonia is one of the most common chemicals manufactured and transported around the world and has plenty of accidents but hydrocarbon accidents get into the hundreds of deaths: 150 dead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoa_disaster 500-600 dead 5000–7000 suffering severe burns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juanico_disaster 167 dead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha

People even hook up to natural gas lines after events big and small like: 300 dead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion or here’s a recent event which destroyed 60-100 homes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrimack_Valley_gas_explosion...

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#45

Post by justinclift »

PumpkinSpice wrote: post #38
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses.…

Hmmm, "gas station filled with petrol that explodes" vs "gas station filled with hydrogen that explodes".

Being near either one as it explodes would be bad, but I wonder which one looks more impressive movie-effects-wise? :)

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#46

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

PumpkinSpice wrote: post #38
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses.…

Toyota have produced a prototype ammonia engine they claim is the end of the EV market.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#47

Post by [deleted] »

zeristor wrote: post #27

Looking at the paper, in similar papers reference is made to this paper published 13th September 2023: “Laser-induced nitrogen fixation” https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-41441-0 This is Open Access, and mentions how that is also a leap forward in Nitrogen fixation “Abstract: For decarbonization of ammonia production in industry, alternative methods by exploiting renewable energy sources have recently been e…

[deleted]

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#49

Post by keep_reading »

PumpkinSpice wrote: post #38
aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such. Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses.…

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/corrosion-of-c...

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#50

Post by oldbbsnickname »

rational_indian wrote: post #37

>150 ± 20 nmol s−1 cm−2 Isn't this miniscule? Is this commercially viable? Edit: The molecular mass of nitrogen is 28, so 1 mol is 28 grams, so 150 nmol is 28 x150 nano grams = 4.2 micro grams. How much gas is this?

Incorrect in multiple respects. The molar mass of N is 14.006747 g/mol, while ammonia is 17.03052 g/mol. Gas expands to fill the container, so it's only worth discussing in mass terms.

It's rate of production over the area of the catalyst. Put another way, that's 1.5 ± 0.2 mmol/m²s or 25.5 ± 3.4 mg/m²s.

24 hours of production over a catalyst with an area of 1000 m² would create 25 ± 3.4 t. That's about the product weight of a typical full cold / cool towed trailer tank sent to large-scale customers. A commercial ammonia refinery would need many multiples of this area to be economically viable.

https://alliancetruckandtank.com/products/transport-trailers...

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