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Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

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Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#41

Post by saled »

yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

You know that there's nothing stopping an open source project funded as a not for profit from doing the same thing right?

If something is hard, that's an argument for making a standard not for profit version of it, so it becomes a common good instead of platform rent seekers keeping out competition by saying it's "too hard".

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#42

Post by throwaway237289 »

alexopensource wrote: post #32
baz00 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. They actually ran mock trials with legal professionals as test cases. That was an instant win for anyone wanting assurance of admissibility. No open source startup is going to win there because it's about entities and process, supported by technology not technology on its own. The technology is absolutely worthless without the framework and legal entities surrounding it. It's a unique position no one real…

They began when Digital signatures were not understood well even by legal professionals. Somewhere fear might have came in picture. Today, its easier to digest the fact that digital signatures are just cryptographic functions that guarantee the authenticity and integrity of documents and various actions on those docs. Plus the legal framework around it is better defined now. I am confident that we will be able to cha…

This answer is incredibly technocratic, and misses the mark on what a digital signature is.

A digital signature is a legal construct that stands up in court.

The movement might have begun, but you need to change your perception. You have to stop talking like a technocrat and address the business problem that signatures solve.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#43

Post by alexopensource »

petertodd wrote: post #15
alexopensource wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for asking the right question. We are taking legal help to be compliant with various jurisdictions. Our solution is currently able to safely sign a document with a digital signature that will make it tamper-proof and show a geen tick in Adobe PDF while keeping track of incremental annotations added by multiple signers. We envision to add support for eIDAS and AADHAAR e-sign(widely accepted in India) very soon.

> Our solution is currently able to safely sign a document with a digital signature that will make it tamper-proof Who holds the secret key that actually signs the document? If this is in fact a self-hosted, open-source, project then clearly the user does, and they could sign a different, tampered, version of the document after the fact. I would hesitate to use the term "tamper-proof" in that situation. Right now you…

In the hosted version, we sign the document on behalf of the user using our own private key. Our roadmap also has the feature to bring your own cert(not relevant here). As soon as a user signs a document, a copy of the signed document is instantly sent to all the parties involved. This ensures that the signer cannot revoke the documents already signed. If the receiving party tries to modify the document, the signature becomes invalid. This is how we make sure that the docs are "tamper-proof" after signing.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#44

Post by tiahura »

yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

You are incorrect. I'm not familiar with any law that requires Docusign in any jurisdiction in which I practice.

The Federal Esign Act provides: 15 USC 7006(5):

The term “electronic signature” means an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically associated with a contract or other record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#45

Post by tiahura »

baz00 wrote: post #8

This is naïve. DocuSign's main sell from a commercial perspective is it separates the parties into the signer, the signee and the authority. If the authority is the signee or the signer then it could be considered unfair. And really no one wants to end up having to hire lawyers to unfuck that mess. Not only that DocuSign does ID verification if you pay them which is required for a bunch of contract types. This does d…

DocuSign doesn't provide anything other than convenience. Generally, in the law, either a signature must be notarized or it doesn't. Docusign isn't a notary, it's really just an electronic document courier. If the legitimacy of a signature is challenged, Docusign isn't going to hire a forensic expert to testify that John Smith was actually the person who logged in and clicked the link. All they can say is that someone with access to the link from IP address 1.1.1.1 clicked Agree.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#46

Post by baz00 »

tiahura wrote: post #45
baz00 wrote: post #8

This is naïve. DocuSign's main sell from a commercial perspective is it separates the parties into the signer, the signee and the authority. If the authority is the signee or the signer then it could be considered unfair. And really no one wants to end up having to hire lawyers to unfuck that mess. Not only that DocuSign does ID verification if you pay them which is required for a bunch of contract types. This does d…

DocuSign doesn't provide anything other than convenience. Generally, in the law, either a signature must be notarized or it doesn't. Docusign isn't a notary, it's really just an electronic document courier. If the legitimacy of a signature is challenged, Docusign isn't going to hire a forensic expert to testify that John Smith was actually the person who logged in and clicked the link. All they can say is that someon…

Um, no. They do full ID verification as well. If you pay for it.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#47

Post by judge2020 »

baz00 wrote: post #46
tiahura wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DocuSign doesn't provide anything other than convenience. Generally, in the law, either a signature must be notarized or it doesn't. Docusign isn't a notary, it's really just an electronic document courier. If the legitimacy of a signature is challenged, Docusign isn't going to hire a forensic expert to testify that John Smith was actually the person who logged in and clicked the link. All they can say is that someon…

Um, no. They do full ID verification as well. If you pay for it.

Where is that required? Maybe POAs? At least Florida and Georgia real estate law (the only ones I'm familiar with) don't require anything of the sort for any of the paperwork (before closing).

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#48

Post by tiahura »

baz00 wrote: post #46
tiahura wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DocuSign doesn't provide anything other than convenience. Generally, in the law, either a signature must be notarized or it doesn't. Docusign isn't a notary, it's really just an electronic document courier. If the legitimacy of a signature is challenged, Docusign isn't going to hire a forensic expert to testify that John Smith was actually the person who logged in and clicked the link. All they can say is that someon…

Um, no. They do full ID verification as well. If you pay for it.

Interesting, my mom just sold her house and there was no verification.

My point stands, legally either a signature has to be notarized or it doesn't. If it doesn't, any signature can be effective. I'll agree that 3rd party hosting provides an element of independence, however, legally it's not required, and could be done by anyone. E.g., a self-hosting a solution that required the signer to upload a video of them clicking I AGREE would provide just as much certainty as anything Docusign can.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#49

Post by baz00 »

judge2020 wrote: post #47
baz00 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, no. They do full ID verification as well. If you pay for it.

Where is that required? Maybe POAs? At least Florida and Georgia real estate law (the only ones I'm familiar with) don't require anything of the sort for any of the paperwork (before closing).

They certainly don't require it but it tends to be used in other transactions where SEC is going to hang you for example.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#50

Post by alexopensource »

throwaway237289 wrote: post #42
alexopensource wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They began when Digital signatures were not understood well even by legal professionals. Somewhere fear might have came in picture. Today, its easier to digest the fact that digital signatures are just cryptographic functions that guarantee the authenticity and integrity of documents and various actions on those docs. Plus the legal framework around it is better defined now. I am confident that we will be able to cha…

This answer is incredibly technocratic, and misses the mark on what a digital signature is. A digital signature is a legal construct that stands up in court. The movement might have begun, but you need to change your perception. You have to stop talking like a technocrat and address the business problem that signatures solve.

I agree. This is the result of being surrounded by developers all day long lol. Will try to focus more on the business problem.
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