The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression • Hacker News Board

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#41

Post by lm28469 » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:05 AM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

I wouldn’t attribute this to immigration. Generally (eta: in my understanding in the usa where this study also is) immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do. I otherwise agree the homeowning NIMBY class who want to retain neighborhood character or whatever suck, because as a consequence they are restricting housing. I also want to point the finger at corpo…

> Generally immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do

I don't want to generalise things, but since you're doing it yourself:

In France migrants and descendant of migrants are between 50% and 100% more unemployed than the rest of the population.

They also represent 28% of social spending despite being 12% of the population

https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/6793274?sommaire=679339....

https://www.marianne.net/economie/economie-francaise/le-vrai...

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#42

Post by jongjong » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:05 AM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

I wouldn’t attribute this to immigration. Generally (eta: in my understanding in the usa where this study also is) immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do. I otherwise agree the homeowning NIMBY class who want to retain neighborhood character or whatever suck, because as a consequence they are restricting housing. I also want to point the finger at corpo…

The other side of the coin is that locals increasingly have to compete with immigrants who are put into desperate positions (as a result of having less bargaining power) and therefore willing to accept lower wages which drives down wages for locals too.

In effect, the desperation of immigrants spreads to the locals. To the locals who are used to a certain way of life, it's quite a shock that they now have to go to extreme lengths just to make ends meet.

Even immigrants who eventually manage to become citizens after several years, eventually find themselves forced to compete with the next wave of even more desperate immigrants.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#43

Post by addicted » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:06 AM UTC

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #36

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t attribute this to immigration. Generally (eta: in my understanding in the usa where this study also is) immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do. I otherwise agree the homeowning NIMBY class who want to retain neighborhood character or whatever suck, because as a consequence they are restricting housing. I also want to point the finger at corpo…

Immigration is clearly an undeniable part of the problem. I am in Australia and when immigration was halted during covid rents declined in many places, often substantially. Now we are full-tilt on immigration again and rents are soaring. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that putting more people in a given area with the same amount of housing will cause the rents to rise.

It was clearly the immigration because there was nothing else going on at the time that could explain the changes.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#44

Post by delfinom » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:06 AM UTC

cyanydeez wrote: post #15

wtcactus wrote: post #12

"In a 2020 journal article for the American Society on Aging, Kushel wrote that of all the homeless single adults in the early 1990s, 11% were aged 50 and older. By 2003, she says that percentage grew to 37%." Society has been built for couples. With the major societal changes in the last 2 decades, we had an explosion of single people wanting to live alone, and the infrastructure is simply not prepared for it. My pa…

In America, it looks like real estate is becoming a victim of capitalism: companies buy properties, convert them to rentals, the collude with each other to "maximize" the value of those rentals. Then they claim the real problem is zoning codes so they can buy up more property just to expand their monopoly. Homelessness is the a low water effect caused by inflation.

Pretty much, here in NY, they tried to forced villages to suspend zoning for apartments. Except, these villages here are already being heavily developed, by nothing but luxury apartment buildings. (There are in fact 4 going up next to me right now). The real estate mafia controls NY and they wanted the inconvenience of building codes suspended so they could build more luxury units faster.

Also, what keeps happening is the developers cheat, don't offer affordable units in the end, and the villages get sued for displacing low income individuals which violates some HUD rules and suddenly the remaining village taxpayers are subsidizing the rents of people in these luxury apartments by federal order. (Because my village currently is doing this). You know, instead of the luxury apartment apartment building that caused the displacement.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#45

Post by colonelpopcorn » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:07 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #35

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place). The issue is that a sizeable underclass is being created that have no wealth, not least because what wealth they did have has been funnelled to the very wealthy. For example, medical bills. For example student loans. For example zero interest rates with zero wage inflation meaning accommodation cost…

Pretty sure the under class is by design. Anyone who's ever used the phrase "real job" believes in the necessary existence of an under class.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#46

Post by roenxi » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:08 AM UTC

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #31

epistasis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only the regulations, but that regulations put Boomers in control of allowing housing locally. The combination of a generation that pulls up the ladder as soon as they have something, plus a government that caters to local homeowners has created a catastrophe for all but the wealthiest. Housing austerity benefits the wealthy (by which I include all homeowners) by extracting economic rent from everyone less w…

It really isn't just the boomers. It is landowners/homeowners of many different generations. The whole "blame the boomers" thing plays into the hands of the landowners shaking down the rest of us. Don't fall for it and focus on the actual problems not attacking a group.

I certainly agree with you, it is more about how people behave than anything else.

Nevertheless, if we look at how the Boomers acted, they:

- Presided over a bunch of aggressive and needless wars.

- Led the slow decay of the US economy, weighed down with regulation, struggling to build things and stuck in a money printing spiral.

- Have done a terrible job of letting up the political reins to new blood, and generally allowed liberty to backslide in some stunning and catastrophic ways (pointing particularly at the monetary system that has been consistently getting more repressive and the surveillance state).

In some sense it is impressive that they only got a few things wrong, as a generation there was some amazing technological work done. But it is hard to recover from political and economic mistakes that profound. There isn't enough real wealth generation, retirement savings have been blown up in a lot of exotic foreign countries like Iraq and someone is going to have to do without. It'd be fairest if the blow fell on the Boomers, they set this up. The next generation can pay for their own mistakes.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#47

Post by addicted » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:08 AM UTC

ejb999 wrote: post #29

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t attribute this to immigration. Generally (eta: in my understanding in the usa where this study also is) immigrants are job creators and entrepreneurs, and take less from the system than native born people do. I otherwise agree the homeowning NIMBY class who want to retain neighborhood character or whatever suck, because as a consequence they are restricting housing. I also want to point the finger at corpo…

Just keep telling yourself that... NYC would strongly disagree. When you let 5-10 million +/- people into the country in a short amount of time - where are they supposed to live? Of course it drives up homelessness and home prices - use your common sense.

NYC also had the same housing stock in 2020 as in 2000.

Despite adding several Boston’s worth of population at the time.

So I’m not sure it’s as simple as arguing it’s only the demand side when clearly the supply side hasn’t kept up.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#48

Post by fnimick » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:09 AM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #37

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

It's more about real estate being seen as an investment vessel than "government regulations". Most building regulations have sounds basis, they exist because without them people were building very shady and dangerous housing Also people aren't homeless because there are no "homes", it usually runs much deeper than that

Building regulations yes, zoning regulations no.

There's a community near me that has enormous housing shortages and yet they maintain a 1 acre minimum lot per single family house only to "preserve character". Does that sound like a safety issue to you?

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#49

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:10 AM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #37

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

It's more about real estate being seen as an investment vessel than "government regulations". Most building regulations have sounds basis, they exist because without them people were building very shady and dangerous housing Also people aren't homeless because there are no "homes", it usually runs much deeper than that

Houses being investment is the bulk of it. But what's absurd is that people in US think they have right to have the value of their investment protected. So they oppose any regulation that might influence supply or demand for housing in unfavorable way for them. And politicians treat them as if they have a point instead lauging in their faces and saying, the point of investment is that you take the risk of having a loss.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#50

Post by Ensorceled » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:10 AM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

This is the standard conservative "big government" and "young people today don't want to work" rant.

> The problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations.

Regulation yes, but it's not the lack of building; we're building like crazy all over North America. Many new homes are "lost" and become second or third homes for the wealthy or airbnb rentals. Regulations are not building for high capacity, preferring to sprawl and build monster homes that house few, wealthier people. Regulations are preferring condos to low income rentals.

> I think we have a situation where part of the population is literally voting to appropriate wealth from another part of the population.

Yep, but unintentionally. Governments are cutting taxes on the wealthy while transferring remaining tax money to their investments in the form of corporate welfare.

> Voting for more immigration which drives up demand for houses and voting for more regulations which constrain the supply of housing.

One of the parties in the US and a couple in Canada are literally running on "Immigration is bad" platforms. People aren't voting for immigration, they are getting immigration despite how they are voting.

> t the same time, those people who do not own a house are wising up to the scheme and so they increasingly refuse to work or provide value to society. Instead, they resort to financial schemes, illegal activity, freeloading government benefits; they've checked out from the system.

Ah yes, the welfare queen rant. People aren't "refusing to work", many are sick (physically and/or mentally) and/or homeless and can't take on jobs, not because they are lazy but because no one hires someone who smells like they haven't showered in a month. Companies are the ones resorting to financial schemes and illegal activity; wage theft and union busting is big business. Companies are freeloading FAR more than sick people.

People have "checked out from the system" because the system has abandoned them. When homes are $1M or more, there is no point working a second or harder job in order to afford a home, for many people owning a home is now forever out of reach.

> It seems that we are headed for an economic and political disaster.

We are and the biggest part of the problem is people who have fallen for the "it's big government and poor people who are robbing you blind" story.