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Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

alprofoundation.org

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Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#41

Post by shrubble »

sgu999 wrote: post #30

Dairy milk straight of a cow doesn't look at all like what we can buy in a supermarket, and home made soya milk is very easy to do. I wouldn't bet on which one is the most "processed" by the industry. Alpro is obviously doing its share of lobbying, but here in France a law was passed to forbid the term "milk" for plant based milk. Soya "milk" isn't allowed on labels for instance. All across Asia everyone knows what i…

It's so manufacturers and restaurants can't lie about what they are selling.

Think about a canned coffee drink with 'milk' added, but then in very small letters on the side of the can it says *soy milk as an example

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#42

Post by close04 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #24
kuerbel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the scientific evidence points to the fact that ultra-processed foods are unhealthy. There is much more money to be made in pushing the opposite view. But of course, those little mom and pop shops like Nestlé, Unilever et al don't have the money to do this, right?

You realize that Nestlé and Unilever play both ends, owning both high and low-processed food brands, both factory and organic produce? The same way pharma companies are the ones making homeopathic "remedies". Food processing isn't evil, it's to a large degree a necessity. The alternative to processed food isn't everyone eating the mythical, health and happiness-granting fresh produce - it's population dropping to lev…

When we’re talking about food quality then processed usually means bad, ultra processed is ultra bad [0]. What you’re thinking of are other externalities which may make the low quality acceptable compared to the alternative.

Processed food is bad food. Bad food is better than no food.

“Your money or your life” makes it look like losing all your money is good because it kept you alive.

[0] Worked in the food industry at some point. I’ve seen how the sausage is made literally and figuratively.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#44

Post by thaumasiotes »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #39
thaumasiotes wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can’t even buy bread now without it being bulked out with soya flour … I found this somewhat disturbing and you appear to be mostly correct. I did find a few breads that don't list soy flour as an ingredient, mostly breads that specifically advertise a certain material like "100% whole wheat" or "Jewish Rye". (Oddly, the Jewish Rye didn't have soy flour, but it also didn't seem especially concerned about being a ry…

Is soy flour a recognized allergen? I've heard that recently, companies opted to adding common allergens to products on purpose , so they can be listed as ingredients, as doing that and losing a small market segment is cheaper than ensuring the production lines are certifiably free of contamination from said allergens.

I remember hearing about that too; you're probably right. That would neatly explain why trivial amounts of soy flour are being added for no apparent reason.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#45

Post by olalonde »

uoaei wrote: post #16
olalonde wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is mckinsification?

Is it so hard to infer? McKinsey, consulting firm famous worldwide for its ruthless "optimization" of all industries often at the expense of consumers in favor of realizing short-term gains that look good to C-suite and shareholders, causes shifts in business practices both directly in its involvement as well as indirectly by inspiring copycat competitive tactics.

I guessed it had something to do with the consulting firm but as I couldn't figure out what they had to do with the popularity of ultra-processed food, I thought it might have referred to something else.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#46

Post by Ensorceled »

uoaei wrote: post #16
olalonde wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is mckinsification?

Is it so hard to infer? McKinsey, consulting firm famous worldwide for its ruthless "optimization" of all industries often at the expense of consumers in favor of realizing short-term gains that look good to C-suite and shareholders, causes shifts in business practices both directly in its involvement as well as indirectly by inspiring copycat competitive tactics.

I’ve heard of McKinsey, despise them and the term still made no sense completely out of the blue and out of context.

Maybe McKinseyfication would have been better…

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#47

Post by JoshuaRogers »

uoaei wrote: post #16
olalonde wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is mckinsification?

Is it so hard to infer? McKinsey, consulting firm famous worldwide for its ruthless "optimization" of all industries often at the expense of consumers in favor of realizing short-term gains that look good to C-suite and shareholders, causes shifts in business practices both directly in its involvement as well as indirectly by inspiring copycat competitive tactics.

Hadn't heard of McKinsey. Genuinely thought it was a weird way to reference President McKinley in the same way you might hear "Reaganomics". I was waiting to hear how a long dead president was responsible for the food chain issues. :P

Edit: Added missing word.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#48

Post by myshpa »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #33
sgu999 wrote: post #30

Dairy milk straight of a cow doesn't look at all like what we can buy in a supermarket, and home made soya milk is very easy to do. I wouldn't bet on which one is the most "processed" by the industry. Alpro is obviously doing its share of lobbying, but here in France a law was passed to forbid the term "milk" for plant based milk. Soya "milk" isn't allowed on labels for instance. All across Asia everyone knows what i…

> but here in France a law was passed to forbid the term "milk" for plant based milk. Soya "milk" isn't allowed on labels anymore for instance. Even though all across Asia everyone knows what it is, us French are apparently too dumb and would be confused. Good. I'm all for such laws. Soya "milk" isn't "milk" as the term has been culturally understood for millennia. It's not that people are dumb, but rather that words…

> It's not that people are dumb

Are you sure?

- Almond Milk - Over 1,000 years (Middle Ages)

- Soy Milk - Over 2,000 years (China)

- Rice Milk - Centuries (Asia)

- Coconut Milk - Millennia (Southeast Asia)

- Oat Milk - Centuries (Nordic countries)

- Hemp Milk - Late 20th and 21st century

- Cashew Milk - Late 20th century onwards

- Poppy Seed Milk - Centuries (Eastern Europe)

- Tigernut Milk - Ancient Egypt to present (Spain)

- Walnut Milk - Consumed for centuries

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#49

Post by virtualritz »

paganel wrote: post #22
DarkNova6 wrote: post #5

This article is a big nothing burger. Of course a foundation with the goal to "drive the transition to more healthful plant-based diets for human and planetary health. "[0] is against labeling highly-processed plant based food as "highly processed". Quote: > In an era of urgency to move populations towards more environmentally and nutritionally beneficial plant-based diets, making a simple switch to soya meat replace…

> making a simple switch to soya meat replacements and milk alternatives is a realistic and easy dietary change for most consumers to achieve Pardon my French, but I don’t know what the author of that article finds “easy” in that. Soy milk tastes like s*t, as does soy meat, in fact one of the main reasons we, Romanians, deposed Ceausescu back in the day was because his technocrats had tried to impose on us to eat soy…

> Soy milk tastes like s*t, as does soy meat, [...]

I do believe the stuff you had in Romania at the time did.

But what is your base of comparison? I invite you to sample the produce a supermarket in a bigger German city has today in plant-based dairy/meat alternatives (soy and other). And then re-visit your opinion on this matter -- after bringing your taste bud's experience up to date, so to speak. ;)

> in fact one of the main reasons we, Romanians, deposed Ceausescu back in the day was because his technocrats had tried to impose on us to eat soy-based salami [...]

Yes, that surely was one of the worst things this "soy-dictator" and his henchmen did.

You, sir, must be joking. For if you don't, you do not know the the recent history of your peoples well.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#50

Post by marcus0x62 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #24
kuerbel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the scientific evidence points to the fact that ultra-processed foods are unhealthy. There is much more money to be made in pushing the opposite view. But of course, those little mom and pop shops like Nestlé, Unilever et al don't have the money to do this, right?

You realize that Nestlé and Unilever play both ends, owning both high and low-processed food brands, both factory and organic produce? The same way pharma companies are the ones making homeopathic "remedies". Food processing isn't evil, it's to a large degree a necessity. The alternative to processed food isn't everyone eating the mythical, health and happiness-granting fresh produce - it's population dropping to lev…

I think the disconnect here is that people don't consider that almost any action (process) applied to food post-harvest is 'processing' and it is difficult to draw meaningful distinctions between healthy and unhealthy foods based on the 'processed' description.

If you buy pre-cooked chicken breast, for instance, that's 'processed' in at least three ways: it was cut up, it was seasoned (including with salt, which is a preservative,) and it was cooked. Is that bad for you? Maybe, if they add too much salt. Otherwise, it is probably indistinguishable from the chicken breast you might cook at home.

Pasteurization reduces food waste, but it also improves food safety. Are you better off without 'processed' (i.e., pasteurized) eggs if you're making something like Caesar dressing? I'd rather have the 'processed' eggs.

I try not to eat Twinkies, not because they are 'processed' (home-made, scratch-made cake is also 'processed',) but because they contain a lot of sugar and high level of saturated fat. Personally, I try to avoid sugar as much as possible, and if I'm consuming something with saturated fat, like beef, I want to have a meaningful amount of protein.

*Edit*

Before anybody WELL, ACKSHUALLYS my definition of processed here, please refer to page 5 of this[0] document from the US Federal Government which includes the USDA definition of processed food:

A processed food is “any food other than a raw agricultural commodity, including any raw agricultural commodity that has been subject to washing, cleaning, milling, cutting, chopping, heating, pasteurizing, blanching, cooking, canning, freezing, curing, dehydrating, mixing, packaging, or other procedures that alter the food from its natural state” (Dwyer et al. 2012).

Also note their (US Aid) definition of 'Ultra Processed Food':

Ultra-processed foodstuffs are marked by the addition of other ingredients (e.g., preservatives, flavors, nutrients, or other additives or substances, such as salt, sugars, and fats) (Dwyer et al. 2012; Martínez Steele et al. 2016; Monteiro et al. 2019).

So, if I take tomatoes, add even a minimal amount of salt and basil, and can them, that's an 'ultra processed food'. This is what the fancy San Marzano tomato sauce you buy at Whole Foods is. If you think canned tomatoes are fundamentally unhealthy in some way, I cannot help you.

0 - https://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PA00ZH5N.pdf

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