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Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

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Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#41

Post by pgeorgi »

yvdriess wrote: post #26
blueflow wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the reason that it has so few women involved It is repeated and repeated again that because there aren't as many women as men in IT, there must be some kind of badness going on. I offer a more charitable explanation: Women don't want to, the same way Men don't want to go to yoga courses. No badness involved, just people making their decisions.

The problem with that explanation is that in the past, there were a lot more women in computing. First as operators and programmer/mathematicians, later the gender mix was following the same upward trend as other sciences. I've seen two explanations for the dearth of women in computing: engineering culture becoming dominant in the '60s (where it was more the domain of mathematics before) and the rise of personal comp…

> in computing: engineering culture becoming dominant in the '60s (where it was more the domain of mathematics before)

That would suggest that countries in which that transition didn't happen (such as Germany: Informatik was and is a math-oriented field, the engineering side mostly ended up with electrical engineering) should see different trends. At least for Germany: no.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#42

Post by severus_snape »

SSLy wrote: post #29
severus_snape wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see 20 years from now which of React, Angular and Linux is still around.

With the non-enforcement of the license (see vmware, various chinese companies), Linux kernel is de facto MIT, yes.

My experience as an embedded software programmer is quite the opposite. We do care about releasing our Linux modifications under GPLv2, and we do contribute to community when it makes sense.

> see vmware

from https://lwn.net/Articles/696936/: "The court ruled that he had not provided enough specificity about the code he was claiming had been used by the company. The merits of the GPL and whether the two main parts of VMware's product constitute a derived work of the kernel were not even considered."

That doesn't seem to prove anything.

> various chinese companies

HiSilicon (https://github.com/hisilicon/linux-hisi) releases its fork.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#43

Post by riffraff »

pjmlp wrote: post #24
aerhq3h5 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without meaning to be overly pessimistic, why would it be so certain that such salvation would come from GNU and the free software movement? The most common operating system in peoples' day-to-day computers is Android which is effectively Linux without GNU bundled in.

And even the Linux kernel might one day be changed for Zirkon.

didn't google all-but-abandon Fuchsia's development (and thus Zircon)?

There was a bunch of lay-offs in January, in July they announced the smart speakers would not use it, and AFAIU the only product using it (the Nest Hub) is supposed to be replaced by the Pixel Tablet.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#44

Post by nologic01 »

Its easy to drift into lamenting how the vision of the original free software movement was lost. This would be missing the growing forest (the widespread adoption of open and collaborative modes of software production) for a singular tree (a specific ideology about the role of computing).

What has been happening in these four decades is that ever more segments of society (whether individuals or private enterprise or public sector) got into this mode of using and developing a shared resource (a common good). This is just an unprecedented positive development that gets lost among the avalanche of bad news. I can't think of anything remotely comparable in any other domain. We need to celebrate this more.

Now, of-course when something succeeds to grow beyond childhood it may evolve beyond recognition. A mass adopted religion might be quite different from the original prophet's visionary preaching. It may split into lots of heresies. These heresies might become more popular than the "orthodoxy". There is simply no way to avoid money and politics when something becomes mainstream.

Imho, the challenge today is not to rekindle some pure and true faith but have leaders of equal clarity of vision and purpose that will champion the underlying cause in new and specific contexts that are becoming relevant as the movement expands. The corporate world outside big tech is still largely absent from open source. Digital public goods from public entities still nascent even though they are extremely congruent with the philosophy.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#45

Post by the-dude »

aerhq3h5 wrote: post #14
p-e-w wrote: post #11

If by some sequence of miracles society manages to avoid the seemingly inevitable slide into a techno-totalitarian future, there is no doubt that Free Software will be what makes that possible. I consider it quite likely that Stallman and Torvalds will eventually be viewed as two of the most influential individuals in human history, at least on par with Marx and Engels, but arguably even more important, provided thei…

Without meaning to be overly pessimistic, why would it be so certain that such salvation would come from GNU and the free software movement? The most common operating system in peoples' day-to-day computers is Android which is effectively Linux without GNU bundled in.

I think it is fair to say that without the GPL and GNU, there would have been no Linux as we know it today.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#46

Post by froh »

pipo234 wrote: post #22
orthoxerox wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now we're moving to "free 3.0" (aka screw you Amazon), which is more restrictive than MIT or GPL.

There are a lot of issues with FSF's perspective and the way they were written down. Running GNU derivative in a proprietary cloud is one of them. RedHat (in)ability to make a fair profit is another. Still Google's Linux "theft" led to more openness in Android than Apple's BSD Unix rip off. Regardless of the license chosen, sustainability of open source is a problem. (I'm still baffled by the absence of government sp…

what do you mean by "fair profit"?

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#47

Post by sbuk »

psychoslave wrote: post #17
noufalibrahim wrote: post #6

My earliest exposure to free software was via. GCC and Emacs. The early debates on Gnu/Linux, OSS vs. Free Software etc. were all things I imbibed back then. The ideological stand of the FSF was appealing to me when I was younger and really affected my outlook. Over the years, I can't help but feeling that while the FSF's core message is still relevant and true, their tactics have more or less pushed them outside of…

Let’s see. On the one hand you have people motivated by the ideal of software "developed specifically for the sake of users' freedom". On the other hand you have dystopian corporate whose biggest dream is slave labor and locked-in cash cows from which value is drained 'til the last drop. There is no tactic for obtain reconciliation of two world views in direct and systematic opposition. If engaging in a tactic lead t…

> "On the other hand you have dystopian corporate whose biggest dream is slave labor and locked-in cash cows from which value is drained 'til the last drop."

An therein is the problem I, and I know many others, have with the FSF and it's followers. This language is just not compelling - in fact, it's a massive turn off, even if you think it's true. This comes off as the ravings of a crackpot! Consider "On the other hand, there are very real concerns about some corporations, with evidence that they are prioritizing profits over ethics, potentially leading to exploitative practices and consumers feeling trapped in long-term commitments.". IMHO says exactly the same thing, conveys the same gravity and prompts engagement.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#48

Post by aerhq3h5 »

the-dude wrote: post #45
aerhq3h5 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without meaning to be overly pessimistic, why would it be so certain that such salvation would come from GNU and the free software movement? The most common operating system in peoples' day-to-day computers is Android which is effectively Linux without GNU bundled in.

I think it is fair to say that without the GPL and GNU, there would have been no Linux as we know it today.

I mean that's true and commendable but the OP was speaking towards the future. And on our current trajectory the future is only becoming more and more decoupled from GNU. From the downvotes though I've either come across as combative or sarcastic I suspect.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#49

Post by red_admiral »

safety1st wrote: post #27
red_admiral wrote: post #10

I have mixed feelings about this anniversary. RMS is both the reason that the free software movement is where it is today, and the reason that it has so few women involved. If we could turn back the clock, I wish we could keep the good parts but leave out the bad parts.

RMS has been subjected to a defamatory smear campaign which has falsely accused him of being transphobic, sympathetic to pedophiles and hostile to women. The attacks targeting him have largely come from people who aren't involved in free software and in some cases not even involved in the tech industry. While his behavior has been awkward at times he is absolutely none of these things and he deserves respect for his…

I'm not sure about transphobic, as that allegation did not come up when the original "package" that led to RMS' resignation was published. It could be that new evidence has come to light since, or it could be that the allegation of transphobia is unfounded.

Some of the original allegations that I think are proven correct are that RMS:

  - defended Marvin Minsky on a mailing list when Minsky was accused of sex with an underage woman, and made similar comments in defense of Cody Wilson. I believe Stallman's quote on the MIT listserv was that "[it is] normal for adults to be physically attracted to adolescents" when referring specifically to an allegation concerning someone under the legal age of consent. I think "sympathetic to paedophiles" is a defensible interpretation of such comments.

  - The accusations of sexism are also supported by evidence, such as the "EMACS virgins" incident in July 2009 which RMS himself admitted the basic facts of (while claiming it was meant to have been a joke). One version of the lines involved reads "The virgin of emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act." @daringfireball (John Gruber) also quotes a Wired article claiming RMS had a card on his door at MIT saying "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)". I think "hostile to women" is a defensible interpretation of these facts, especially as there is testimony from women in tech who say they find this sort of thing hostile.
On the basis of the evidence I have seen, some of which I have quoted above, I rebut the allegation that the accusations against RMS are a smear campaign, though I make no comment on the allegations specifically of transphobia as I have not fact-checked that part myself.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#50

Post by shrubble »

red_admiral wrote: post #10

I have mixed feelings about this anniversary. RMS is both the reason that the free software movement is where it is today, and the reason that it has so few women involved. If we could turn back the clock, I wish we could keep the good parts but leave out the bad parts.

Many women don't want to be around nerds. It's really that simple.
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