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Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

bloomberg.com

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Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#41

Post by tsss »

prewett wrote: post #8
jagraff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea with campaigns like these is not to actually root out spies - it's to get people to self censor because they're afraid that their neighbor is going to report them to the government. If everyone is afraid of saying any forbidden ideas, nothing "subversive" can spread because everyone lives in too much fear to spread it. Knowledge of this campaign is more important than the function of the campaign its…

It's kind of impressive to watch Xi continually double-down on disastrous policy. The memory of the Cultural Revolution is still there, and nobody wants to revisit those times. But after the disastrous Shanghai lockdowns, a lot of ordinary people realized that the government can just arbitrarily lock you up and destroy your ability to earn money / run your business. Young people who sacrificed their childhood to rele…

Apparently, at least all of the "little red book" social media users do want to revisit those times.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#42

Post by JuanPosadas »

alphabetting wrote: post #26
lucubratory wrote: post #25

Remember: if you see something, say something. But when China does it there's actual outrage. I wish people here had the same outrage about us doing the same thing in the West, where that outrage could actually possibly have an impact on the real world other than just propping up two-minutes hate on the official enemies. Getting mad about China's numerous repressive measures achieves literally nothing, because they d…

In July, one Chinese employee was allegedly reported to the police by his colleagues after failing to remember the lyrics to a popular Chinese song at a karaoke night aroused their suspicion. “He turned out to be a you-know-what,” one user who knew the group wrote on social media app Xiaohongshu, named after Mao’s Little Red Book that was used to compel the nation’s population to inform on each other. China offers up…

> Are things like this happening in the West?

Isn't there something about abortion snitching in Texas?

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#43

Post by aristus »

The goal with this kind of thing is not about actually finding spies. By flattening discourse you make it easier to spot pockets of true discontent. And as a side effect it pits the hoi polloi against each other instead of together against the state.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#44

Post by l3mure »

drt5b7j wrote: post #21

He's paranoid about spies because he know how much effort China has made to place spies everywhere abroad, and he assumes that the West is doing the same.

> he assumes that the West is doing the same

Of course it is? The CIA was openly crying in the press a couple years ago about their Chinese network getting rolled up, and later touted the establishment of a "China Mission Center."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-ex...

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/16/1051170999/as-u-s-spies-look-...

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#45

Post by red-iron-pine »

tromp wrote: post #5

> Police in Henan province have urged citizens to quiz neighbors they mistrust on pop culture to ascertain their patriotism, while Shandong province state media published posters with the tagline “spies might be all around you.” All this campaign will do is generate a ton of false positives. They'll end up duplicating Russia's practice of reporting people you don't like as unpatriotic. The US also has some experience…

Sounds like Cultural Revolution 2.0 -- this time with bots!

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#46

Post by janalsncm »

inglor_cz wrote: post #38
janalsncm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there isn't really an efficient way to supply dissenting news to Chinese people in Chinese en masse What exactly would you like to tell them? A large percentage of Chinese have access to VPNs, travel to other countries, and talk with people from all over. The trade offs that Americans have implicitly made, accepting high street crime in exchange for “freedom” won’t universally be accepted as better. They are a cult…

" Economically, they’re doing significantly better than their parents." Are you sure about the really young cohorts? AFAIK youth unemployment in China is so bad that they stopped releasing the stats.

Yes. Even taking the last two years into account, China has gone from a gdp/capita of under $1000 to over $12000 in just 20 years. Thats equivalent to jumping from an Ethiopian economy to a Russian one in the span of a generation. China has poured more concrete since 2000 than the rest of the world combined prior to 2000.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#47

Post by janalsncm »

nradov wrote: post #37
janalsncm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there isn't really an efficient way to supply dissenting news to Chinese people in Chinese en masse What exactly would you like to tell them? A large percentage of Chinese have access to VPNs, travel to other countries, and talk with people from all over. The trade offs that Americans have implicitly made, accepting high street crime in exchange for “freedom” won’t universally be accepted as better. They are a cult…

Americans have made no such trade off. The amount of street crime is quite low in most of the country. It's only a noticeable problem in a few large cities that have been wrecked by failed progressive policies. My city has literally zero murders most years, and those few that have occurred have been private disputes rather than street crime.

Those “failed progressive policies” are American policies made by American politicians. The United States has very high crime rates compared to China.

If you don’t trust Chinese crime stats, check Singapore’s which are even lower. Singapore is a city bigger than LA but with low crime rates due to cameras and police that know how to do their jobs. Singapore also gives the death penalty for peddling drugs which is a lesson conservative states might have directed at the Sackler family rather than giving them a free pass.

Shootings are common in the U.S. and American politicians have accepted this reality. Even after children are slaughtered, politicians do nothing. Those children pay for American “freedom” with their lives. Other cultures choose to put children first.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#48

Post by drt5b7j »

l3mure wrote: post #44
drt5b7j wrote: post #21

He's paranoid about spies because he know how much effort China has made to place spies everywhere abroad, and he assumes that the West is doing the same.

> he assumes that the West is doing the same Of course it is? The CIA was openly crying in the press a couple years ago about their Chinese network getting rolled up, and later touted the establishment of a "China Mission Center." https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-ex... https://www.npr.org/2021/11/16/1051170999/as-u-s-spies-look-...

Of course the West also has spies everywhere. But it's not doing the same as China. The scale in which china does it isn't even in the same league.

Edit: just skimmed your comment history. You're one of those "America bad" people. Good luck.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#49

Post by klibertp »

drt5b7j wrote: post #48
l3mure wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he assumes that the West is doing the same Of course it is? The CIA was openly crying in the press a couple years ago about their Chinese network getting rolled up, and later touted the establishment of a "China Mission Center." https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-ex... https://www.npr.org/2021/11/16/1051170999/as-u-s-spies-look-...

Of course the West also has spies everywhere. But it's not doing the same as China. The scale in which china does it isn't even in the same league. Edit: just skimmed your comment history. You're one of those "America bad" people. Good luck.

Argument from character - exemplified by a post history - is a fallacy.

Other than that, sorry to break it to you, but "America" (the USA govt, more specifically) is really bad for almost everyone other than US citizens. Which is expected - officials routinely say they have their own citizens and industry well-being in mind. The US has had almost 40 years of monopoly in what you could call a "protection racket" if it wasn't already called a NATO charter. As a result, as with all monopolists, the price of belonging to the club was very high (both economically and politically, and in other areas, too). And that was even before Trump, when a lot of trust in stability of long-term commitments went down the drain.

To many countries it's still worth it, of course. To many, though, it's just the only option, irrespective of the costs. To them, "America bad" is an obvious statement of fact. And I'm speaking about nominal "allies" here! Imagine how it looks to Iranians or Afghans.

I'm not "against America", I'm against exploitative monopolies, no matter where they come from. The fact that every other option is even worse, doesn't really negate the fact that America can, and many time is, objectively "bad" news to others.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#50

Post by klibertp »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #36
drt5b7j wrote: post #21

He's paranoid about spies because he know how much effort China has made to place spies everywhere abroad, and he assumes that the West is doing the same.

He's turning China into North Korea. A great collapse and starvation is coming.

Starvation? With Russia so reliant on China? Russia can feed China easily as long as China keeps Russian state from collapsing.
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