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Why I’m betting on Nostr

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Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#41
post #28

as a dev and nostr user, here’s my elevator pitch: everything is an event. events are signed using pki so it’s easy to know who sent the event and it’s authentic. they’re human readable json objects. events flow over websockets so it’s “real time”. you can build literally anything on this platform - listen for a type of event, do something, emit another. it can all interoperable. we started with basic twitter clones…

> listen for a type of event, do something, emit another. If everything is an event, and you can send any types of events, then you can trivially saturate the network, the clients, and the relays with bogus events. > but are rapidly moving into uncharted territory - people are building music distribution apps, ai agents, and so on. None of this is uncharted territory. Uncharted for Nostr, maybe. But time and again an…

> If everything is an event, and you can send any types of events, then you can trivially saturate the network, the clients, and the relays with bogus events.

I agree this is a problem. However, there is at least one protocol addition (that doesn't involve cryptocurrency per se, although it shares some ideas) that tries to address this: proof-of-work requirements.

The idea is basically this: message IDs are SHA256 hashes of message contents. If you add a nonce to the message metadata, then each time you change the nonce, you'll get a different SHA256. Relays can then choose to ignore messages without a particular number of leading zeroes in the event ID. This means a client will have to do a non-trivial amount of computation to generate an event ID that a particular relay will accept.

> None of this is uncharted territory. Uncharted for Nostr, maybe. But time and again anything that comes out of crypto shows that people building this stuff have literally zero knowledge of what has been there in the real world before them.

I mean, I think it's a direction for social media that hasn't been tried yet on a wide scale. Personally, I look at it as a cool idea- I don't know if it'll actually pan out in the long run, but I think it addresses a bunch of problems with both centralized and federated social media, so it's worth seeing what can be done.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#42

All the degenerate token-fueled web3 hype of 2021 sold a bunch of dreams about decentralization and owning your social graph to unsuspecting retail and then delivered nothing but rugpulls and bankruptcy letters. Meanwhile, nostr built a system people actually use on top of open protocols. No tokens, no blockchains. Only notes and other stuff transmitted over relays.

[deleted]

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#43

as a dev and nostr user, here’s my elevator pitch: everything is an event. events are signed using pki so it’s easy to know who sent the event and it’s authentic. they’re human readable json objects. events flow over websockets so it’s “real time”. you can build literally anything on this platform - listen for a type of event, do something, emit another. it can all interoperable. we started with basic twitter clones…

I love the programmatic payments. what's the key rollover story? social key recovery? IMO these are table stakes for PKI to reach the general public. There's a technology called KERI (key event receipt infrastructure) that I'm bullish on, has to do with signing new keys with the old, with witnesses, with configurable threshold cryptography (m-of-n key reconstruction) my favorite part about that last one is the possib…

Afaik there is no key rollover story or recovery. I know it’s been discussed and I found this PR: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/637

KERI sounds interesting, I’ll read up on that. Maybe you can review that PR and share some insights?

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#44
post #8
post #6

The number of users is almost irrelevant in the context of Nostr because many clients generate a new ID. These aren't email-verified/phone-verified users -- this is literally just a new key/ID being generated. Some web apps auto-create a new ID and join the network every time you use them. Also, the signal to noise ratio is really bad with a lot of spam and almost all discussions related in some way to crypto. Nostr…

And even then most of the discussion are very shallow compared to crypto twitter. I can't understand why. I would've thought since it's early adopters, discussion inside a tightly knit group would be more meaningful... alas

I guessing this is because you are used to an algorithm that is constantly showing you the most liked content. average day to day discussions between humans can be pretty shallow, nostr feels more like shooting the shit with your friends instead pumping rage bait and dopamine into you brain 24/7

This is also why I suspect people are generally nicer and happier on nostr, there is much less fighting because there is no algorithm that boosts angry and controversial threads.

not to say algorithms can't happen on nostr, there just aren't many in clients yet.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It removes trusting a 3rd party.

I don't get it. Either I validate who I am when I log in to Twitter, or I validate who I am when I set up my "Nostr" identity?

You generate a public/private key pair. When you want to send a message (tweet), you sign it with your private key and broadcast it to relay(s).

The messages contain your pubkey so others know who sent it. Your messages are signed so others know they came from you.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#46
post #39
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, author of https://damus.io here (ios twitter-like nostr client) > First, I want a replication strategy. Nostr messages get lost in time, and many of the clients end up just blasting an entire message history at your client. Because there's no clue in the protocol how messages are related other than a timestamp this also means you can fake timestamps and write fake messages in the future or back in time You can d…

> > Second, I don't like that many Nostr clients are using the same signing key for messages as they do for lightning transactions. > This is simply not true. I'm sorry if I'm wrong about this one. How does it work?

Zaps just put a signed nostr note inside a lightning invoice so that clients can show that a specific user send some amount of money to some note or profile. clients request lightning invoices via lnurl (an http lightning specification). You could do the same thing for any other fiat or crypto system if you want to, but nostr was mainly build by bitcoiners which is why there is lots of bitcoin tech integrated, but its completely optional.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#47
post #15

I tried Nostr for awhile, and I appreciate that they're picking up where Scuttlebot left off. There are a few things that bug me about it that I wish they'd fix, or that some future protocol will solve. First, I want a replication strategy. Nostr messages get lost in time, and many of the clients end up just blasting an entire message history at your client. Because there's no clue in the protocol how messages are re…

> First, I want a replication strategy. Nostr messages get lost in time, and many of the clients end up just blasting an entire message history at your client. Because there's no clue in the protocol how messages are related other than a timestamp this also means you can fake timestamps and write fake messages in the future or back in time. This doesn't have to be an append-only log, but you need some idea of message…

> nostr is stateless it’s just a streaming protocol for messages

I've brainstormed ways to solve this on top of Nostr. Perhaps I could write a program that downloads all of the history of Nostr (or perhaps just the users I'm interested in?) and then my server would sign when I received the messages and create order out of that.

Then if I get a message that claims to be from the past at some point in the future, I'd instantly be able to see that. I'd also be able to periodically ping relays and see what messages that are no longer being relayed and I'd have some curiosity about why that is happening.

I just kind of wish this was baked into the protocol. But I sailed here from the Scuttleverse. I'm open to ideas about how to do this well.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#48
post #15

I tried Nostr for awhile, and I appreciate that they're picking up where Scuttlebot left off. There are a few things that bug me about it that I wish they'd fix, or that some future protocol will solve. First, I want a replication strategy. Nostr messages get lost in time, and many of the clients end up just blasting an entire message history at your client. Because there's no clue in the protocol how messages are re…

So I've been building of one of the nostr web clients ( https://satellite.earth ) full time since December last year - I agree partially with all these points and will try to add something from my perspective of being perhaps a bit too close to this.

1) With regard to message replication/ordering, the relays are supposed to reject messages that are received with a timestamp that deviates from the server clock beyond some max delta, but it's not clear they always do this. Nostr in its current state (multiple relays hosting everything and letting clients sort it out) is optimizing for redundancy over efficiency — as the ecosystem matures I think this will get sorted out. I have one idea in particular that I think could really help, but it's beyond the scope of this comment.

2) In the very early days you had to copy/paste your key into some clients, but this is not the case anymore. There are several web extensions now that hold your key securely and expose a limited interface for clients to sign messages.

3) You're right - there are too many NIPS (that's "nostr implementation possibility" for those unaware). But fortunately the only required NIP is NIP-01 which is basically just a standard for how to sign and exchange json between clients and relays. I don't think any client implements all the NIPs. In fact, there has been a lot of talk on nostr about 'microapps' (apps that specialize in a narrow use case) and that's fine — maybe because nostr was birthed in the context of being a Twitter alternative we've been thinking that all clients need to support the whole protocol, but I don't really think it will turn out that way. Since all apps are interoperable with a shared user identity, it's possible for clients to be complementary to each other in a way that hasn't previously been incentivized.

4) Regrading blob storage — that's what NIP-94 was created for. You can in principle create a "file" message containing whatever metadata you want. This can be a torrent magnet link or IPFS cid or whatever.

For what it's worth, I've personally never had as much coding anything than I have working on nostr. There's a core group of people that are very excited about this, and it's really motivating to get immediate feedback every time I push an update. No doubt the whole thing is very messy compared to a corporate-sponsored project like (for example) Bluesky. My bias is toward ecological systems tending to win in the long term. We'll find out.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#49
post #46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Second, I don't like that many Nostr clients are using the same signing key for messages as they do for lightning transactions. > This is simply not true. I'm sorry if I'm wrong about this one. How does it work?

Zaps just put a signed nostr note inside a lightning invoice so that clients can show that a specific user send some amount of money to some note or profile. clients request lightning invoices via lnurl (an http lightning specification). You could do the same thing for any other fiat or crypto system if you want to, but nostr was mainly build by bitcoiners which is why there is lots of bitcoin tech integrated, but it…

How do you request your Zaps balance to send it somewhere else (like to a Bitcoin wallet)? Maybe this is a Lightning thing and not a Nostr thing.

I guess I assumed it was based on the private key you generated when you got started on Nostr and if that private key became compromised then the Zaps could go to whoever had the private key.

Perhaps there is a document somewhere that explains this.

Re: Why I’m betting on Nostr

#50
post #15

I tried Nostr for awhile, and I appreciate that they're picking up where Scuttlebot left off. There are a few things that bug me about it that I wish they'd fix, or that some future protocol will solve. First, I want a replication strategy. Nostr messages get lost in time, and many of the clients end up just blasting an entire message history at your client. Because there's no clue in the protocol how messages are re…

IPFS is so heavy and unperformant, just not a lot of bang for your buck when paying for a host. As far as I can tell it owes its success to VC funded blockchain startups subsidizing hosts with 8:1 payouts for hosting other peoples' stuff I'm betting on webtorrent paired with seedboxes - your peer just has to serve whatever mp3/mp4 you're hosting to the first few clients, and as long as their browser windows are open…

Someone with money should create a VC fund for simple IPFS alternatives. That's a good idea.
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