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A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#41

Post by OfSanguineFire »

capableweb wrote: post #14
bigbillheck wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where forms of serfdom were still present in the late 20th century While I don't doubt it, I haven't been able to find anything that actually supports this claim. But considering who it was that actually owned serfs I think we can all agree that this is another reason it's a shame the wrong side won the Spanish Civil War.

Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (…

> Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany

This is precisely what happened in non-Soviet-occupied Germany. Only the most senior Nazis were severely punished at big trials like Nuremberg. For lesser ranking Nazis, even when they were sentenced to imprisonment, their sentences were generally short or soon commuted.

South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation commission focused on the investigation side in order to provide healing, but it sought to avoid prosecuting any but the most trenchant participants in Apartheid – and the country was praised for that. There is certainly a belief that coming down hard on the ancien regime may only prolong civil conflict, so it is hard to see Spain’s way of dealing with Franco’s legacy as beyond the pale.

> Spain still experiences a lot of issues related to fascism

I don’t think this is a fair characterization of contemporary Spanish politics. The political successor of Spanish Fascism (the falangistas) had dwindled by the 1990s to a handful of elderly folk who were derided by wider society. Today in Spain, the term “fascist” is often applied by people on the left to any ideological opponent on the far-right or even the center-right, but that right-wing opponent’s actual link to Franco or the distinctly early-twentieth-century phenomenon that was Fascism, is doubtful.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#42

Post by oa335 »

37074177throw wrote: post #34

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_i... I have to find the letter (possibly a Jewish reader can dig it out?) but I remember reading and being amused by a letter penned by Maimonides to iirc Jews in Arabian peninsula. Apparently they had written to him having heard of the paradise of tolerance in Muslim Spain and his letter poo pooing it, telling them it’s no better than their locale. I always…

Maimonides lived under a particularly harsh time, contemporaneous to the Al-Muwahidun (Almohads) overthrow of the dynasty of the Al-Murabitun (Almoravid). The Almohads were much less tolerant than the previous dynasties, though that intolerance waned with time.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#43

Post by Chris2048 »

littlestymaar wrote: post #19
Chris2048 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to me. There are some conservative books there, but also general topics too.

> There are some conservative books there, but also general topics too. And that's exactly what to expect from a conservative library! There's no left-wing book, at all, in the shelves and that's a pretty clear sign. We can't know for sure if the “general topics” are themselves conservative, but the complete lack of left-wing PoV in collection, that doesn't bode well.

but the claim wasn't that is was a "a conservative library" (consisting or specialising in having of a large amount of conservative titles, presumably for conservatives) - but that it (or a large selection of its titles) caters to RW culture warriors, to the extent that you ask "why would they have published this one if it was not?", i.e. it cannot be merely conservative, but assumed RW-extreme.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#44

Post by StevePerkins »

bigbillheck wrote: post #5
christkv wrote: post #3

Ah yes the beautiful myth of the Andalusian Paradise. Turns out it's probably just a myth. For a different historic take I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Andalusian-Paradise-Christians-M...

This book was published by Regnery in their ISI Books line and if you look at the rest of their catalog ( https://www.regnery.com/books/isi-books/ ) there's a certain theme that's overwhelming. To be slightly more explicit, when so many of their other books are so obviously by and for right wing culture warriors, why would they have published this one if it was not? (And if you look outside that particular imprint th…

If you check the bibliography of this article's author, his latest book seems to be a wistful longing for Che Guevara and the Cuban Revolution.

The greatest "myth" I'm seeing in this thread is the idea of objective pop history writers (or readers). All of these works are goods being sold to a consumer audience. Perhaps in decades past, many consumers favored works that expanded or challenged their worldviews. But in today's zeitgeist, most consumers want to read things that reinforce how they view the world already.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#45

Post by the_gipsy »

capableweb wrote: post #14
bigbillheck wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where forms of serfdom were still present in the late 20th century While I don't doubt it, I haven't been able to find anything that actually supports this claim. But considering who it was that actually owned serfs I think we can all agree that this is another reason it's a shame the wrong side won the Spanish Civil War.

Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (…

After 40 years of Franco, everybody was scared of a coup. In fact, in '81 a some military-police did try it, but fortunately failed. So it was kind of sensible not to tear up the country and provoke another war and/or dictatorship. You can't just "flip the country over" and go after basically everybody with any political, military, or economic power.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#46

Post by Simorgh »

37074177throw wrote: post #34

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_i... I have to find the letter (possibly a Jewish reader can dig it out?) but I remember reading and being amused by a letter penned by Maimonides to iirc Jews in Arabian peninsula. Apparently they had written to him having heard of the paradise of tolerance in Muslim Spain and his letter poo pooing it, telling them it’s no better than their locale. I always…

I've not heard of this letter - and would also be curious to read it!

Al-Andalus (Muslim Spain) is considered religiously tolerant by modern historians in the context of the experience of Jewish citizens, especially when compared to contemporary parts of Western Europe.

As an example, it seems there was an expulsion of around 100,000 Jews in Christian France in 1306 and in England in 1290 of several thousand. I've not come across any such comparable events in my readings of Al-Andalus.

As a direct point, if Maimonides thought that France and so on would have offered more freedom or a better quality of life, then he could have moved there when Cordoba was experiencing political turmoil. He instead migrated through the Maghreb, towards the Middle East - it seems he was employed by Saladin at some point.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#47

Post by oa335 »

Ligma123 wrote: post #40
37074177throw wrote: post #34

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_i... I have to find the letter (possibly a Jewish reader can dig it out?) but I remember reading and being amused by a letter penned by Maimonides to iirc Jews in Arabian peninsula. Apparently they had written to him having heard of the paradise of tolerance in Muslim Spain and his letter poo pooing it, telling them it’s no better than their locale. I always…

[flagged]

About that book: “ It would be a book-length corrective that would address and properly contextualize and source all of the errors that occur at every level in The Myth, from basic problems of terminology to broader methodological and interpretive flaws” - https://wp.nyu.edu/sjpearce/2017/03/17/paradise-lost/

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#48

Post by jmyeet »

A podcaster I listen to said something that stuck with me. He doesn’t care who invented the light bulb. That would’ve happened anyway.

What’s way more interesting is events that could’ve completely changed human history. Like if Julius Caesar lost in Gaul or the Persians had defeated the Greeks or the Mongols had invaded Europe.

On that list had to be what if Islam had spread throughout Europe? It very much could’ve at different points. Not just the Moors but later the Ottomans.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#49

Post by mejutoco »

capableweb wrote: post #14
bigbillheck wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where forms of serfdom were still present in the late 20th century While I don't doubt it, I haven't been able to find anything that actually supports this claim. But considering who it was that actually owned serfs I think we can all agree that this is another reason it's a shame the wrong side won the Spanish Civil War.

Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (…

This is indeed the source of many troubles for Spain, and it is quite shocking. There are laws against investigating were victims of civil war are buried, and other dark things like that.

At the time, any reforms had to please the Franco supporters, or a coup was feared. This is why the Constitution is ambiguous in many points: Spanish is aconfessional but with special historical weight for Catholicism, the amount of independence of different regions, etc.).

I think it is easier to understand after 2 facts:

1. The dictatorship lasted from 1939 until 1975.

2. Franco designated what would be the next King as his successor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I). Keep in mind Spain was a republic before Franco's coup and civil war. This king, instead of becoming the new dictator, was installed back with the monarchy.

Re: A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

#50

Post by the_gipsy »

profeatur wrote: post #28
capableweb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (…

>wrongdoers This goes all ways. The USSR had their hands in Spanish politics. Spain’s extensive gold reserves were drained and shipped off to Moscow, for instance. Spain was dragged into a political and economic system with no real organic connection to the country. Democracy here has always been a farce. During covid the leftist government enacted some of the most draconian lockdowns in the world, and there was zero…

> the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco

A key part of Fascism is that there is no real division between private and state enterprise, beyond some cosmetic titles. So the proportion is definitely not greater today, whatever measure you define. And if you mean "the total amount", which is even more meaningless, and today it is greater, than that is because Franco's economy was just very underdeveloped.

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