Slavery's last stronghold • Hacker News Board

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#41

Post by randallsquared » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:40 PM UTC

mtts wrote: post #21

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

Indeed. And most slavery in the world today is extremely complicated (in order to make it less obvious that it is in fact slavery) and nasty, making the slavery discussed in this article almost seem benign by comparison: it's out in plain view, it involves black people and it takes place in a backwards country far, far away. Much different from, say, indentured servants in Dubai, Eastern European prostitutes or illeg…

It appears that a terrible consequence of redefining prostitution or immigration law as "slavery" is that it may lead to regarding the original, actual slavery as "benign by comparison".

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#42

Post by moldbug » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:43 PM UTC

maxklein wrote: post #17

No, don't believe this. The world is a very complex place, and what makes for a good story is often very different from what reality is. When American journalists write about the world, they write as if the world is America. Stories are broken down into us vs them, people become black and white, some people are assigned the label 'good' and some the label 'bad'. Everything gets americanised, even the american obsessi…

Here's an example of what maxklein might mean.

Ask yourself: is the relationship between Moulkheir Mint Yarba and her master typical of Mauritanian slavery? Or is it very atypical and unusual? Or in between?

I'll bet you have no idea. But if you knew - wouldn't that change the way you react to this reality? (Assuming it is a reality. Mike Daisey's reality sure wasn't.)

I have no idea, either, because Mauritania is a foreign country to me. I'm happy to let it remain so. I have enormous doubts that American social engineers can improve it from afar with pallets of dollars, or drone strikes, or whatever we're using these days. (We might improve our own country first, although it's admittedly harder because we can't use drone strikes...)

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#43

Post by mattdeboard » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:46 PM UTC

mtts wrote: post #21

H_E_Pennypacker wrote: post #2

I don't mean to undermine this powerful report but slavery is alive and growing across the planet. I think it's important to remember that there are higher percentages of slaves in the world now than there were back in the days the Western world considers the slave era. So, Mauritania is far from being the last stronghold. Al Jazeera and Rageh Omar produced an excellent series on modern day slavery.

Indeed. And most slavery in the world today is extremely complicated (in order to make it less obvious that it is in fact slavery) and nasty, making the slavery discussed in this article almost seem benign by comparison: it's out in plain view, it involves black people and it takes place in a backwards country far, far away. Much different from, say, indentured servants in Dubai, Eastern European prostitutes or illeg…

Did you actually read the article? "benign" doesn't belong in the same dictionary as the words that should be used to describe the slavery described in it.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#44

Post by sofifonfek » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 1:16 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #32

thomasdavis wrote: post #8

Slavery exist everywhere, we just call it 'life' or '9-5'

That is not slavery. Slavery is the absolute absence of choice and opportunity. So-called "wage slavery" is the very poster child of "first world problems". Oh golly gosh it sucks so much to be tied to a job you hate, doesn't it? But in the vast majority of cases that lack of perceived freedom is not an actual lack of freedom but due to choices made. Often it's due to failure to budget and save properly, failure to a…

So according to your post, having more money = freedom ? Does it not look like what a slave to money would say to deny slavery ? Or as stated in the article: Various religions in many countries have been used to justify the continuation of slavery. "They make people believe that going to paradise depends on their submission,"

That's said, what you stated is false,it's a known fact that the abolition of old style slavery was to replace it with a new from of slavery, namely minimum wage slavery, according to a then emerging economic context. Something along these lines: freed slaves have to find money to buy food and shelter and are offered minimum wage for jobs doing what they used to do when they were slave.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#45

Post by choros12 » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 1:20 PM UTC

josephcooney wrote: post #5

That first paragraph was like a punch in the face. Makes me realize how inconsequential my first-world problems are.

I know I will be down-voted for this, but I just have to say it: US is a nation of slaves. People are slaves to their banks. They have to work just to have roof over their heads and medical care.

I used to live in Poland, Germany and the US. I'm citizen of all those 3 countries.

In places like Poland people are just free. You can even sense it from the way they act in Poland. They don't really give a damn about their jobs, this or that. They know they are covered. Most people in Poland own their apartments/houses. I mean they own it. Not the banks. It's not like you have to work. It is an option. Americans and the other hand are just so intensely focused on their jobs even when it is picking up garbage. But hey, they have little choice, don't they? They need to bring their paycheck to the bank every month, just not to be thrown outside the boat without the life jacket.

The most perverted thing about this phenomenon though is that, Americans think they are free. They don't even see how enslaved by the system they are.

Don't understand me wrong. I love the USA. It is my country. But it is just simply staggering when you think about the cognitive distortions Americans have when they look at themselves. Born in debt, die in debt. That's feudal peasants AND NOT free people.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#46

Post by mtts » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 1:26 PM UTC

randallsquared wrote: post #41

mtts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. And most slavery in the world today is extremely complicated (in order to make it less obvious that it is in fact slavery) and nasty, making the slavery discussed in this article almost seem benign by comparison: it's out in plain view, it involves black people and it takes place in a backwards country far, far away. Much different from, say, indentured servants in Dubai, Eastern European prostitutes or illeg…

It appears that a terrible consequence of redefining prostitution or immigration law as "slavery" is that it may lead to regarding the original, actual slavery as "benign by comparison".

"Illegal immigrants" : forced to work off their debts to the people who smuggled them into Europe, usually in illegal sweat shops or worse:

"Eastern European prostitutes" : a subset of illegal immigrants who are forced to work as sex slaves.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#47

Post by mtts » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 1:29 PM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #43

mtts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. And most slavery in the world today is extremely complicated (in order to make it less obvious that it is in fact slavery) and nasty, making the slavery discussed in this article almost seem benign by comparison: it's out in plain view, it involves black people and it takes place in a backwards country far, far away. Much different from, say, indentured servants in Dubai, Eastern European prostitutes or illeg…

Did you actually read the article? "benign" doesn't belong in the same dictionary as the words that should be used to describe the slavery described in it.

If you look up what gets covered by the relatively innocuous term "Human trafficking" you'll find it can get much, much worse.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#48

Post by sofifonfek » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 1:30 PM UTC

An interesting view of slavery in Mauritania, it's important to raise awareness about slavery which has a natural tendency to fly under the radar.

But the sensationalist title is misleading, old style slavery is much more prevalent than this article let the reader believe, obvious cases are dubai and sex slaves, but there are more all across the world.

And there is the new style of slavery,the kind where people are free to get minimum wage to barely pay for food and shelter or maintaining themselves in debt, the kind where freedom is about choosing between brands or channels, choosing between a limited panel of wanna be leaders all funded by the same pocket.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#49

Post by InclinedPlane » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 1:36 PM UTC

sofifonfek wrote: post #44

InclinedPlane wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not slavery. Slavery is the absolute absence of choice and opportunity. So-called "wage slavery" is the very poster child of "first world problems". Oh golly gosh it sucks so much to be tied to a job you hate, doesn't it? But in the vast majority of cases that lack of perceived freedom is not an actual lack of freedom but due to choices made. Often it's due to failure to budget and save properly, failure to a…

So according to your post, having more money = freedom ? Does it not look like what a slave to money would say to deny slavery ? Or as stated in the article: Various religions in many countries have been used to justify the continuation of slavery. "They make people believe that going to paradise depends on their submission," That's said, what you stated is false,it's a known fact that the abolition of old style slav…

You missed the point entirely. Slavery is about an absence of freedom. So-called "wage slavery" posits that an equivalent lack of freedom exists with people who are "bound" to their job.

But that is bullshit. Wage slavery is bunk. People aren't tied to jobs they hate because they have no choices, they are tied precisely because of the choices they've made.

Choices to buy smartphones, xboxes, big screen tvs, cable and internet service, cars. Choices to eat pre-made food, take-out, or restaurant food instead of cheaper fare like beans and rice. Choices to live alone in expensive housing instead of living with roommates in a cheap neighborhood. Choices to avoid keeping to a budget, avoid saving, avoid putting in the elbow-grease to acquire more skills.

That's about money but it's also about choice. When you have savings, when you live well within your means, when you build up your skillset then the whole goddamn world opens up for you. You have your choice of numerous jobs and even different careers. And especially you find that you are able to support yourself with part-time work. Is that slavery? No, that's freedom. And it's within the grasp of virtually anyone who works a job for a "wage". No it isn't easy, it takes sacrifices. But don't imagine that your slave master is your boss, your slave master is yourself, only you have put yourself in a box financially, mentally, and job skills wise that you feel you are trapped in.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#50

Post by tomkin » Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 2:00 PM UTC

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind.

While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventual realization that religion has no place in our society. We make the mistake of relenting that religion is used for moral guidance – when nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems. Tolerance of intolerance is not the moral high ground.

Toyota made the fatal mistake of making a faulty floor mat which, only caused a handful of deaths. In that, Toyota fired a fleet of people, re-evaluated their whole process while battling media and governments for months. We burned Toyota at the stake for a handful of deaths, but we pay no mind to the religious implications of our world's enormous head counts all tied to religion. We let millions of innocents die because, what? It makes us feel all fuzzy inside to say others benefit from religion? Really? Why doesn't that rule apply to any other regime or group of followers? And when is it ever a good thing for many people to forfeit critical thinking in place of a template?

Religion on our side of the world looks rosy. If you look away from the west, you will see how religion enslaves and dilutes entire populations into believing this is what god wants.

If we want to really solve the world's problems, we must finally stamp out the tools used to cause pain for millions, and if we look to the roots, the catalyst is most obvious.