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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#41

There's a certain strain of political outlook exemplified by an article like this, commonly categorized as "post-colonial", that ironically morphs itself into increasingly complex and implausible shapes to explain why all of the bad things are caused by the "first world" and nobody else has or will ever have any autonomy as an agent in the world. The other aspect of irony to this is that this worldview is cultivated…

The Shah couldn't have taken the power without US help. It's one of the US few success, Pinochet being the second.

Obviously it's easier when you have internal support.

Basically the Iranian conservatives were divided. The Shah was unlikeable (or untrustworthy I think, if I remember correctly), so the old feudal/clannish/agrarian society wouldn't really support him. The industrialists liked him better, and the islamistes didn't respect him.

He had one advantage: a semi-legitimate claim that a majority would recognize.

He promised the 3 guarantees once in power, and since he had the political acumen of a 12 yo, the Cia handed the negociations for him (this is a 3rd-hand story). The coup worked, but he gave too much of his power after that, and basically handed the state to islamists (his political acumen didn't improve with the years).

That's the story I heard from an Iranian. I choose to believe it until all is declassified.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#42
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: throughout history several countries got super wealthy by stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2, and then had to find other avenues for less obvious colonial-like theft, usually involving toppling leaders thorough coups and installing their own puppets in place who would gladly sign off on their country's resources for pennies to large western corporations

> stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2 It didn’t go out of fashion. Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue. (Russia, notably, still hasn’t figured it out.) If you build one factory, you make money; if you build an army to steal your neighbor’s factory, most likely you both get zero factories.

> Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue

To wit: “…much of [balance-of-power politics] theory was based on agrarian states or early industrial states. And one of the features of agrarian interstate relations was that returns to war outpaced returns to capital, which is a fancy way of saying you could get richer, faster by conquest than by development. Under those sorts of conditions, most powers were going to be, in some form, ‘revisionist’ powers because most powers would have something to gain by attacking a weaker neighbor and seizing their resources (mostly arable land and peasant farmers to be taxed). Indeed that basic interaction creates much of the ‘churn’ of interstate anarchy: everyone has an incentive to prey on their neighbors, creating the dog-eat-dog brutality of interstate interactions. The only countries without such an interest would be countries that were very small and weak, seeking to avoid being absorbed themselves.

But, as we’ve discussed, industrialization changes all of this: the net returns to war are decreased (because industrial war is so destructive and lethal) while the returns to capital investment get much higher due to rising productivity. In the pre-industrial past, fighting a war to get productive land was many times more effective than investing in irrigation and capital improvements to your own land, assuming you won the war. But in the industrial world, fighting a war to get a factory is many, many less times more effective than just building a new factory at home, especially since the war is very likely to destroy the factory in the first place. This was not always the case! The great wealth of many countries and indeed industrialization itself was built on resources acquired through imperial expansion; now the cost of that acquisition is higher than simply buying the stuff. War is no longer a means to profit, but an emergency response to avoid otherwise certain extreme losses.

So whereas in the old system, almost every power except potentially the hegemon, had something to potentially gain by upending the stability of the system, the economics of modern production means that quite a lot of countries will have absolutely nothing to gain from a war, even a successful one. Now that dispassionate calculation has arguably been true for more than a century; the First World War was an massive exercise in proving that nothing that could be gained from a major power war would be worth the misery, slaughter and destruction of a major power war. Subsequent conflicts have reinforced this lesson again and again, yet conflicts continue to occur. Azar Gat argues in part that this is because humans are both evolved in our biology (and thus patterns of thinking and emotion) as well as our social institutions, for warfare and aggression. We have to unlearn those instincts and redesign those institutions and this process is slow and uneven.”

https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coa...

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic Pure democracy turns into majoritarian, partisan anarchy. We’ve known this since Athens. But it’s forgotten by modern Americans, for whom more democracy is seen as good for its own sake, and that leads to foreign policy mistakes by our elites. That said: countries with democratic elements have clear advantages in economic development, scien…

I'm not happy with your explanation because I feel it demonstrates that even an ostensibly smart, reflective person isn't outside their own cultural bias. I can disprove your conception in about a half of a second by citing the economic, social, political and technological miracle , that no democracy has even come close to replication thereof, that was ... 1930s Germany. FDR was also inspired himself by similar autar…

> the economic, social, political and technological miracle, that no democracy has even come close to replication thereof, that was ... 1930s Germany

And then what happened? It’s almost a given that autocracies outperform in the short run, given a good leader.

Across history, balanced political systems have been at the core of great civilisations. In the West, but also in China (oligarchies), the Indus Valley (actual democracies) and in North America (mostly oligarchies). When strong emperors reigned, the civilisations were flashes in the pan.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#44
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2 It didn’t go out of fashion. Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue. (Russia, notably, still hasn’t figured it out.) If you build one factory, you make money; if you build an army to steal your neighbor’s factory, most likely you both get zero factories.

> Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue To wit: “…much of [balance-of-power politics] theory was based on agrarian states or early industrial states. And one of the features of agrarian interstate relations was that returns to war outpaced returns to capital, which is a fancy way of saying you could get richer, faster by conquest than by…

> the First World War was an massive exercise in proving that nothing that could be gained from a major power war would be worth the misery

And yet the "war on terror" happened. US companies gained a lot from that even if the average taxpayer didn't.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#45

TBF the big shots have been putting their mouths into Iran much earlier than that. The British and USSR even had a plan to invade Iran because they were close to Germany back in the day. Of course German posing itself as the liberator because it wants the oil but Britain was blocking it from do so.

Interesting aside about Germany from that time, but the word “Iran” is a reference to a people called Aryans that lived there, and the latter remains a not-uncommon name there. As a Westerner I found this a bit confusing since I don’t associate Iran with the kind of people over here that would use the term Aryan

That's because you don't know any esoteric nazis (lucky you). Look into Savitri Devi. It's a common trope to think that neo-nazis only like caucasaians to the exclusion of everyone else; in reality a lot of them are into ethno-pluralism as long as its combined with separatism and oppression of 'inferior' ethnic groups. The same people that grumble about race mixing being degenerate (by other people) will also endorse scientific selective breeding for the production of superior genetic stock (by themselves). A lot of political extremism is rooted in reproductive frustration.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue To wit: “…much of [balance-of-power politics] theory was based on agrarian states or early industrial states. And one of the features of agrarian interstate relations was that returns to war outpaced returns to capital, which is a fancy way of saying you could get richer, faster by conquest than by…

> the First World War was an massive exercise in proving that nothing that could be gained from a major power war would be worth the misery And yet the "war on terror" happened. US companies gained a lot from that even if the average taxpayer didn't.

> yet the "war on terror" happened. US companies gained a lot from that even if the average taxpayer didn't

The War on Terror, and invasion of Iraq, were massive American policy failures. (The article I quoted says as much.) Had Xi not become a dictator and Putin not invaded Crimea and then the rest of Ukraine, American hegemony would be on a downturn as a result of those fumbles.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#49

There's a certain strain of political outlook exemplified by an article like this, commonly categorized as "post-colonial", that ironically morphs itself into increasingly complex and implausible shapes to explain why all of the bad things are caused by the "first world" and nobody else has or will ever have any autonomy as an agent in the world. The other aspect of irony to this is that this worldview is cultivated…

the US and other Western powers go from bumbling buffoons that can't socially engineer their way out of a paper bag when you can see/prove it (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) to master machivellian puppeteers when you can't.

Asinine argument. Colonial/aggressive powers do well at first because seizing the initiative gives them the advantage of surprise and dismayed targets take time to catch up. The same approaches work less well later because counterparties are wiser to the dynamics and the initiative is harder to seize. Same reason 9/11 only worked once and subsequent large-scale operations by Al Qaeda failed.

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