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Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

materialize.com

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Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#41
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work as a web analyst (think Google Analytics). One time I ran an A/B test on the color of a button. After the conclusion of the test, with a clear winner in hand, it took eleven months for all involved stakeholders to approve the change. The website in question got a few thousand visits a month and was not critical to any form of business. This organization does not benefit from real-time analytics. Now that's an…

Hate to say it but if your site was only getting a few thousand visitors a month your test was likely vastly underpowered and therefore irrelevant anyway

Power is not just about sample size, but also (expected/previously informed by some other evidence) effect size. You can't make that conclusion without that.

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a real time subscription analytics company (chartmogul.com). We fetch, normalize and aggregate various billing systems data and eventually visualize them into graphs and tables. I had this discussion with key people and i would say it depends on multiple factors. Small companies really like and require real-time analytics: they want to see how a couple invoices translate into updated saas metrics or why the…

I think GP's point is that is not about the perceived value of real time data/analytics, but rather, its actual value. Decision makers may ask for RT or NRT, but most of the time won't make a decision or action in a timeframe that actually justifies RT/NRT data/analytics. For most operations RT/NRT data stuff normally is about novelty/vanity rather than a real existing business need.

The article is separating "operational" and "analytical" use-cases.

IIUC analytical = "what question are you trying to answer" and in analytics, RT/NRT is absolutely novelty/vanity. Operational = "what action are you trying to take" and it makes sense to want to have up-to-date data when, for example, running ML models, triggering notifications, etc...

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think GP's point is that is not about the perceived value of real time data/analytics, but rather, its actual value. Decision makers may ask for RT or NRT, but most of the time won't make a decision or action in a timeframe that actually justifies RT/NRT data/analytics. For most operations RT/NRT data stuff normally is about novelty/vanity rather than a real existing business need.

The article is separating "operational" and "analytical" use-cases. IIUC analytical = "what question are you trying to answer" and in analytics, RT/NRT is absolutely novelty/vanity. Operational = "what action are you trying to take" and it makes sense to want to have up-to-date data when, for example, running ML models, triggering notifications, etc...

Yeah, totally. I should've specified "analytical operations", as in, updating dashboards and other non-time-critical data processing that eventually feed into decision making. That's were devs or decision makers asking for RT/NRT makes no sense.

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to say it but if your site was only getting a few thousand visitors a month your test was likely vastly underpowered and therefore irrelevant anyway

Power is not just about sample size, but also (expected/previously informed by some other evidence) effect size. You can't make that conclusion without that.

For sure, but you’d need one hell of a good cta to be getting a sufficient effect size to warrant small samples.

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conveniently leave out the issue of cost. Snowflake is piling on features that encourage more compute. Customers abuse the system and they (Snowflake) respond by helping cement them into continuing the abuse (spending more) by developing features to make bad habits and horrible engineering decisions look like something they should be doing. Typical.

Snowflake are the Oracle of the cloud.

Oh come on snowflake isn’t cheap but there are none of the license auditing nonsense.

(Also aren’t oracle the oracle of the cloud?)

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#46
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I heard is that AWS got there first with Redshift but then didn’t really invest as much as was required by users so Snowflake found an opening and pounced on it. BigQuery in GCP is a pretty great alternative and I know that GCP invests/promotes it heavily, but they were slightly late to the market.

BigQuery is pretty great. The serverless by default setup works very well for most BI use cases. There are some weird issues when you're a heavy user and start hitting the normally hidden quotas.

There are some ways around the heavy user issues that aren't ideal but will work for BI-oriented heavy users.

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#47

I remeber one time I was working as a Data & Analytics Lead (almost a Chief Data Officer but without the title) in a company were I don't work anymore and I was "challenged" by our parent company CDO about our data tech stack and operations. Just for context, my team at the time was me working as the lead and main Data Engineer plus 3 Data Analysts that I was coaching/teaching to convert into DEngs/DScientists. At th…

I agree that is a great approach - build around the main use cases and then make exceptions. I think a lot of companies have legitimate use cases for real-time analytics (outside of their internal decision making), but as you mention, preemptively optimize for the aspiration and leads them towards unnecessary tool and tech sprawl. For example, a marketplace application that shows you the quantity of an item currently available -- you as a consumer use that information to make a decision in seconds, so its a great use-case. Internally, the org probably uses that data for weekly or quarterly forecasting. I've seen use cases like that lead to the "let's make everything real-time", but not every use case benefits the same from real-time.

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#48

Arent a lot of businesses being sold on "real time analytics" these days? That mixes the uses cases of analytics and operations because everyone is led to believe that things that happened in last 10 minutes must go through the analytics lens and yield actionable insights in real time so their operational systems can react/adapt instantly. Most business processes probably don't need anywhere near such real time analy…

> In this context-- the section in article where it says present data is of virtually zero importance to analytics is no longer true. We need a real solution even if we apply those (presumably complex and costly) solutions to only the most deserving use cases (and not abuse them).

Totally agreed, though where real-time data is being put through an analytics lens is where CDW's start to creak and get costly. In my experience, these real-time uses shift the burden from being about human-decision-makers to automated decision-making and it becomes more a part of the product. And that's cool, but it gets costly, fast.

It also makes perfect sense to fake-it-til-you-make-it for real-time use cases on an existing Cloud Data Warehouse/dbt style _modern data stack_ if your data team's already using it for the rest of their data platform; after all they already know it and it's allowed that team to scale.

But a huge part of the challenge is that once you've made it, the alternative for a data-intensive use case is a bespoke microservice or a streaming pipeline, often in a language or on a platform that's foreign to the existing data team who's built the thing. If most of your code is dbt sql and airflow jobs, working with Kafka and streaming spark is pretty foreign (not to mention entirely outside of the observability infrastructure your team already has in place). Now we've got rewrites across languages/platforms, and leave teams with the cognitive overhead of multiple architectures & toolchains (and split focus). The alternative would be having a separate team to hand off real-time systems to and only that's if the company can afford to have that many engineers. Might as well just allocate that spend to your cloud budget and let the existing data team run up a crazy bill on Snowflake or BigQuery as long as it's less than the cost of a new engineering team.

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There's something incredible about the ruthless efficiency of sql data platforms that allows data teams to scale the number of components/engineer. Once you have a Modern-Data-Stack system in place, the marginal cost of new pipelines or transformations is negligible (and they build atop one another). That platform-enabled compounding effect doesn't really occur with data-intensive microservices/streaming pipelines and means only the biggest business-critical applications (or skunk works shadow projects) will get the data-intensive applications[1] treatment, and business stakeholders will be hesitant to greenlight it.

I think Materialize is trying to build that Modern-Data-Stack type platform for real-time use cases: one that doesn't come with the cognitive cost of a completely separate architecture or the divide of completely separate teams and tools. If I already had a go-to system in place for streaming data that could be prototyped with the data warehouse, then shifted over to a streaming platform, the same teams could manage it and we'd actually get that cumulative compounding effect. Not to mention it becomes a lot easier to then justify using a real-time application the next time.

[1]: https://martin.kleppmann.com/2014/10/16/real-time-data-produ...

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#49
post #33

There are other databases today that do real time analytics (ClickHouse, Apache Druid, StarRocks along with Apache Pinot). I'd look at the ClickHouse Benchmark to see who are the competitors in that space and their relative performance.

Yeah ClickHouse is definitely the way to go here. Its ability to serve queries with low latency and high concurrency is in an entirely different league from Snowflake, Redshift, BigQuery, etc.

StarRocks handles latency and concurrency as well as Clickhouse but also does joins. Less denormalization, and you can use the same platform for traditional BI/ad-hoc queries.

Re: Uses and abuses of cloud data warehouses

#50

I caught myself wondering how Google, Microsoft and Amazon let Snowflake win. You can argue they haven't won, but lets assume they have. Two things: 1. SNOW's market cap is $50B. GOOGL, MSFT, AMZN are all over $1T. Owning Snowflake would be a drop in the bucket for any of them (let alone if they were splitting the revenue). 2. Snowflake runs on AWS, GCP or Azure (customers choice), so a good chunk of their revenue go…

> 1. SNOW's market cap is $50B. GOOGL, MSFT, AMZN are all over $1T. Owning Snowflake would be a drop in the bucket for any of them (let alone if they were splitting the revenue).

FAANG can't utilize their market cap to buy SNOW, they would need to pay cash, and 50B is very large amount for any of these companies (its about annual Google net income).

Also, snow stock is very inflated now, it is heavily income negative, and revenue not that high, stock price is very high on growth expectations.

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