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Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

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Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#41
post #15

As a lawyer who has fought a few collection cases, I would disagree with the notion that the collectors typically can’t document the debt. They can. Moreover the fdcpa doesn’t require the collector to prove the debt to you with absolute metaphysical certitude. They just have to verify it.

Hmmm... One would expect that the cases that actually get to the point of lawyers and courts are atypical. It seems likely that the ones who can't document the debt would probably drop the matter when first challenged, long before that stage. Is that not the case?

Banks and card companies absolutely sue people as well — not just third party debt collectors. Discover obviously has the documentation, they can produce it.

I’d like to know the deciding factor for sue or sell.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#42
> the vast majority of consumers, including those with the socioeconomic wherewithal to walk away from their debts, feel themselves morally bound and pay as agreed

The extent to which the headline is true is probably only because of the above quote. If a significant number of people who actually had the means to pay simply chose not to, of course debtors would start taking collection more seriously.

Perhaps this means you could game the system, but I’m still skeptical that any debtor would choose not to sue you over 20k+ if they thought you had the means to pay.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#43
From the linked piece:

> Well, not all of it. I didn’t inherit the assets. She didn’t leave a will, which meant the state of Tennessee inherited her house. What I inherited was her debt.

Wait, is this right?! In Ireland, and I thought most common-law places, if someone dies intestate, an administrator is appointed, in practice generally the next of kin. Any assets go in the estate, the administrator pays any debts out of the estate. At the end, anything remaining goes to, generally, the person’s children (there are more rules for if there are no living kids or parents). If debt exceeds assets, then some debts are paid, the estate is closed, and that is the end of that; the creditors generally have no further recourse, and certainly no recourse against the debtor’s kids. Is this not how it works everywhere, more or less?

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#44

I’d love to build tools that automatically exercise your rights as a consumer against these large corporations. The simple truth is that they rely on the social norms of a society as weapons against them, whilst simultaneously breaking the codified ones.

> they rely on the social norms of a society Norms like being honest and not stealing? society gets really expensive and unfriendly when we have to use enforcement instead of norms.

Can confirm. Cost of transactions in trust-less societies is a very heavy burden. Also, it goes hand in hand with corruption.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#45

You can believe that collection agencies behave illegally and also think that is unethical not to pay your debts to the best of your ability. Even if paying consumer debts is optional, not being able to get credit in the future, especially a home mortgage, is an incentive to pay. Some employers check the credit scores of applicants, and such scores probably are a decent indicator of whether someone has their life in…

Once the debt has been sold off, it's very likely that your credit score has already been impacted. On the ethics front: let's say I owe money to a credit card company. They sell it off to EZ-Sleez, the debt collection company. What do I owe to them? I certainly didn't borrow money from them. We have no particular relationship. They have one with the credit card company, but that's none of my business, from an ethics…

> Once the debt has been sold off, it's very likely that your credit score has already been impacted.

Right — this “optional” description really only means anything after the borrower has nuked their credit for many years.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#46
post #34

Sort of. I got into a rough spot after I got out of the military and I ended up defaulting on all my credit card debt. I got kicked out for being gay with no notice and had no savings. What little I had went to moving and finding a new job. Only AmEx sued me (and we settled). I later sued most of the collection companies with the help of a lawyer and netted about $40K in settlements. Some had called my parents and to…

> Another called me work repeatedly and told my boss This, in a functional legal system, should have them immediately arrested and/or slapped with a fine.

Well I sued and got paid, but it wasn’t easy. I’m sure it didn’t change their behavior. They know most won’t sue. The guy who did it is still there working, I looked him up on LinkedIn.

Finding consumer lawyers willing to take FDCPA cases is tough.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#47

Link to Patrick McKenzie (the actual source, rather than Cory Doctorow's blogspam): https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/the-waste-stream-of-c...

Is it still blogspam if this paragraph exists in the end of the post? McKenzie doesn't know what will fix this. But Michael Hudson, a renowned scholar of the debt practices of antiquity, has some ideas. Hudson has written eloquently and persuasively about the longstanding practice of jubilee, in which all debts were periodically wiped clean (say, whenever a new king took the throne, or once per generation): https://p…

> Is it still blogspam if this paragraph exists in the end of the post?

yes

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#48

Sort of. I got into a rough spot after I got out of the military and I ended up defaulting on all my credit card debt. I got kicked out for being gay with no notice and had no savings. What little I had went to moving and finding a new job. Only AmEx sued me (and we settled). I later sued most of the collection companies with the help of a lawyer and netted about $40K in settlements. Some had called my parents and to…

> Another called me work repeatedly and told my boss Even from a purely self serving perspective, why would they do this? If your boss gets mad that you have bad debt and fires you, then it’s now even less likely that you will be paying off the debt, no?

> Even from a purely self serving perspective, why would they do this?

Because nearly nothing in the world works on the level of individually self-serving, containerized ideas which have direct one-to-one causes and effects.

As an exercise, instead imagine these companies operating on high latency, realtime digital signal graphs running at low sample rates.

Say one of those companies' graphs needs to operate on an incoming stream of 10,000 samples. The company obviously desires the highest frequencies to pass into the "payment received" output.

So they add an "anger-the-boss" filter into the signal chain.

There aren't just direct consequences here-- each change causes a rippling effect for the consequent samples. And that rippling effect clearly changes the behavior of some consequent victims. For example, if victims already heard about these nasty tactics and they want to keep their current job, they might decide to pay if those tactics are still being used.

It probably doesn't get the optimal output for the company. But the article talks about how a 1% change in payment rates can be the difference between success and bankruptcy. Like most realtime systems, they don't have the luxury of screwing around with potentially better outcomes if it ever means missing deadlines for paying the company's bills.

You'd probably drive yourself crazy thinking of all human affairs as low-latency DSP graphs. But I would propose doing the exercise however long it takes to get rid of the pattern of reflexively approaching any new social puzzle by positing a perfectly self-interested and self-contained individual sample.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#49

You can believe that collection agencies behave illegally and also think that is unethical not to pay your debts to the best of your ability. Even if paying consumer debts is optional, not being able to get credit in the future, especially a home mortgage, is an incentive to pay. Some employers check the credit scores of applicants, and such scores probably are a decent indicator of whether someone has their life in…

Once the debt has been sold off, it's very likely that your credit score has already been impacted. On the ethics front: let's say I owe money to a credit card company. They sell it off to EZ-Sleez, the debt collection company. What do I owe to them? I certainly didn't borrow money from them. We have no particular relationship. They have one with the credit card company, but that's none of my business, from an ethics…

You have a relationship; creation of the relationship was enabled if not formed when you signed the card agreement and agreed that your debt could be sold, transferred, or exchanged to or with a third party. If you thought that was unethical, you should have redlined it at the time.

Re: Paying consumer debts is basically optional in the United States

#50

From the linked piece: > Well, not all of it. I didn’t inherit the assets. She didn’t leave a will, which meant the state of Tennessee inherited her house. What I inherited was her debt. Wait, is this right?! In Ireland, and I thought most common-law places, if someone dies intestate, an administrator is appointed, in practice generally the next of kin. Any assets go in the estate, the administrator pays any debts ou…

Yeah, that's how it works here in Tennessee too. Not sure what happened.

Edit: looks like the literature referenced was from almost 200 years ago.

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