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Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

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Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#41

Post by tptacek »

nonethewiser wrote: post #35
ianburrell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal system has a much higher bar to put people in prison for crimes. Organizations have a much lower bar for deciding not to associate with people. Their goal is to protect their members. Also, there are lots of things that are problematic but not crimes. "Sexual misconduct" could mean sexual harassment, which isn't a crime but shouldn't be allowed in organization.

But Lichess has neither the means nor interest in uncovering the truth. So why active as a judge?

Because they've decided that doing so furthers their aims.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#43

Post by DetroitThrow »

ajkjk wrote: post #26
COGlory wrote: post #5

I'm confused what Lichess wanted here. One woman complained. USCF assigned her an escort. More women complained. USCF banned the guy. This sounds completely reasonable, unless the first woman provided proof, you can't just ban someone because of an allegation. But they took steps to ensure her safety at future events. What does Lichess want here? They say it's insufficient, but they never really say what should have…

What are you talking about? There are like... a thousand things that could have done better here, and which were still being done long after the complaints. Ban the people. Completely totally remove the people who are assaulting underage girls from any event and any association. Don't "provide an escort", wtf. Ban them .

Yes, it's shocking the lack of empathy towards the victims being shown by the organization and the lack of long term prevention for this kind of behavior.

There's much talk in media and on social media about accusations of pedophilia, but when there are multiple real predators being outed there is a surprising amount of people who come out to support treating them with white gloves. The fact it's taking lichess to disassociate with these organizations to attract attention to their lack of urgency and care for victims is deplorable.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#45

Post by kstrauser »

ajkjk wrote: post #26
COGlory wrote: post #5

I'm confused what Lichess wanted here. One woman complained. USCF assigned her an escort. More women complained. USCF banned the guy. This sounds completely reasonable, unless the first woman provided proof, you can't just ban someone because of an allegation. But they took steps to ensure her safety at future events. What does Lichess want here? They say it's insufficient, but they never really say what should have…

What are you talking about? There are like... a thousand things that could have done better here, and which were still being done long after the complaints. Ban the people. Completely totally remove the people who are assaulting underage girls from any event and any association. Don't "provide an escort", wtf. Ban them .

Yep. Why should underage girls — or of-age women, or men, or anyone — have to be escorted around to keep them safe? The victims here aren’t wanting to walk around Mogadishu at night. They’re at a chess tournament.

Kick the harassers out.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#46

Post by ethanbond »

nonethewiser wrote: post #35
ianburrell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal system has a much higher bar to put people in prison for crimes. Organizations have a much lower bar for deciding not to associate with people. Their goal is to protect their members. Also, there are lots of things that are problematic but not crimes. "Sexual misconduct" could mean sexual harassment, which isn't a crime but shouldn't be allowed in organization.

But Lichess has neither the means nor interest in uncovering the truth. So why active as a judge?

Notice that courts don’t really “uncover the truth” either, not even on paper. They just establish likelihood of guilt — just like any other org could.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#47

Post by compiler-guy »

nonethewiser wrote: post #35
ianburrell wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal system has a much higher bar to put people in prison for crimes. Organizations have a much lower bar for deciding not to associate with people. Their goal is to protect their members. Also, there are lots of things that are problematic but not crimes. "Sexual misconduct" could mean sexual harassment, which isn't a crime but shouldn't be allowed in organization.

But Lichess has neither the means nor interest in uncovering the truth. So why active as a judge?

Because it is a question of probability. Not of certainty. And protecting their members is more important than the competing interest of the accused.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#48

Post by jasonlotito »

lettergram wrote: post #30
glenda wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe anyone wants to create a new legal system, but the reality is the vast majority of sexual assault cases aren't resolved in court due to existing social issues. These "judges, jurries and prosecutors" are just people who don't want to associate with potentially dangerous people regardless of the legal outcome. Beyond legal consequences to crime there have always been social consequences too - I think t…

> I don't believe anyone wants to create a new legal system, but the reality is the vast majority of sexual assault cases aren't resolved in court due to existing social issues If by existing social issues, you mean lack of evidence, statute of limitations, then sure. For instance, I see zero evidence that anything occurred here. There may be evidence, but the point of the justice system is to publicly disclose it an…

> It’s very unamerican

This is 100% wrong. American' are very much in favor of instilling their own ethics and morality and guidelines on things they own. Which is exactly what is happening here.

Your belief that you can dictate to others how they can manage their own property is the unamerican thing here.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#49

Post by ethanbond »

lettergram wrote: post #30
glenda wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe anyone wants to create a new legal system, but the reality is the vast majority of sexual assault cases aren't resolved in court due to existing social issues. These "judges, jurries and prosecutors" are just people who don't want to associate with potentially dangerous people regardless of the legal outcome. Beyond legal consequences to crime there have always been social consequences too - I think t…

> I don't believe anyone wants to create a new legal system, but the reality is the vast majority of sexual assault cases aren't resolved in court due to existing social issues If by existing social issues, you mean lack of evidence, statute of limitations, then sure. For instance, I see zero evidence that anything occurred here. There may be evidence, but the point of the justice system is to publicly disclose it an…

> To be honest, that’s effectively what led to the US revolution — lack of due process, ability to redress grievances and representation

No it wasn’t

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