TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#41

Post by rasz » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:12 PM UTC

trompetenaccoun wrote: post #30

r0b1n wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 Billion Euros of public money out of a total of 10 Billion invested. So it is more like "the German state builds a fab, with TSMC and others also investing a little".

>The planned joint venture will be 70% owned by TSMC, with Bosch, Infineon, and NXP each holding 10% equity stake, subject to regulatory approvals and other conditions. I wonder what them "providing" 5 billions as news reports put it actually means. Is this a loan, a gift, or some other type of deal?

Gift. Here is how it worked in Wales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hijJ_4H08RM

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#42

Post by junon » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:12 PM UTC

sirius87 wrote: post #3

Wonder if the Taiwanese govt at some point will step in and block these onshoring measures as a matter of national security. If countries are less reliant on manufacturing within Taiwan, its one less reason to stand up to Beijing's one China principle.

Couldn't TSMC cease or hinder operations if their HQs is threatened and their partnering countries do nothing? Seems like more leverage and ally building than the opposite to me.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#43

Post by Vespasian » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:12 PM UTC

zatarc wrote: post #36

Vespasian wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dresden has been a semimanufactoring hub in Eastern Germany for quite some time. I believe this started in GDR times and continued (at massively reduced capacity) after the reunification. Intel, AMD, Infineon and others operate (or plan to build) factories in Dresend (or saxony in general) and its reasonable to assume that experienced workers and local suppliers make the area a preffered location. Given Eastern Germa…

Intel will settle in Magdeburg. The "AMD" Fab in Dresden belongs to GlobalFoundries (AMD sold its last GlobalFoundries shares in 2012).

Thank you for correcting me :)

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#44

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #28

r0b1n wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The likes of Bosch/Infineon/NXP are not interested in bleeding edge fabs, they sell embedded CPUs from very old fabs they still have. So this is an advancement for them, and totally sufficient for embedded stuff.

> totally sufficient for embedded stuff. No, TSMC 22 has no eFLASH, expensive SRAM, lacking of analog capability, lacks high temperature tolerance, and is tied to multiple patterning design flow. TSMC 40 on the other hand is the last portable node, with MRAM, eFLASH, high temp, some mixed signal, RF, no MP, and everything else your soul desires.

[deleted]

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#45

Post by rasz » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #32

AdamN wrote: post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

A lot of the 'chip shortage' those past years was not for the cutting-edge stuff, but for automotive/embedded devices Not everything needs the 5nm cutting edge, and to be fair calling > 300mm (12-inch) wafers on TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology, old is a bit unfair

and zero of the shortages were caused by lack of fab capacity - companies cut orders for over a year. Old stocks got depleted, prices skyrocketed, then companies reluctantly put new orders and started selling at those inflated prices.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#46

Post by luplex » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

chrizel wrote: post #12

thiago_fm wrote: post #6

Great to see they coming to Germany. If Tesla could build a car factory here from scratch, I'm sure that they can build chips too. Curious why they've chosen Dresden though. Anybody knows how much the government is willing to invest? Missing some tangible figures.

> Curious why they've chosen Dresden though. The region is known for its semiconductor industry, at least in Germany. Quote from Wikipedia about Dresden: > Silicon Saxony Saxony's semiconductor industry was built up in 1969. Major enterprises today include AMD's semiconductor fabrication spin-off GlobalFoundries, Infineon Technologies, ZMDI and Toppan Photomasks. Their factories attract many suppliers of material and…

I wonder how much the decision was influenced by the general lack of opportunity in the east, and the rising alt-right movement as a consequence. I really want eastern Germany to have a better economy.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#47

Post by jasmer » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

crote wrote: post #35

Vespasian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it com…

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#48

Post by justinclift » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

crote wrote: post #35

Vespasian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it com…

Bear in mind that this could be a "thin edge of the wedge" situation. Where they get this "older" node stuff up and running, and if it turns out to be going well then they can think about newer process/node sizes.

It's not a dumb approach.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#49

Post by rsynnott » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:15 PM UTC

sirius87 wrote: post #3

Wonder if the Taiwanese govt at some point will step in and block these onshoring measures as a matter of national security. If countries are less reliant on manufacturing within Taiwan, its one less reason to stand up to Beijing's one China principle.

TSMC is a big buyer of fab equipment from European and US companies; that could quickly become a _very_ ugly trade war.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#50

Post by crote » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 12:16 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #32

AdamN wrote: post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

A lot of the 'chip shortage' those past years was not for the cutting-edge stuff, but for automotive/embedded devices Not everything needs the 5nm cutting edge, and to be fair calling > 300mm (12-inch) wafers on TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology, old is a bit unfair

3nm has already hit mass production. Considering this fab won't be ready for at least another two years, 2nm will have hit mass production already.

22nm dates back to 2012, and TSMC has been doing 14nm FinFET mass production since 2014. So yeah, a decade behind cutting-edge can indeed be called "old" when the entire point of the Chips Act was to catch up with Asia and become a center for innovation.