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Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

nytimes.com

41–50 of 268 posts

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#41
post #34

"Why I left reddit" 'It changed man. The culture wasn't the same as when I joined five years ago.' These 'I said GOODBYE SIR!'s are interesting, but I'm not sure how much reliable information can be gleaned from them. What ever happened to not 'burning your bridges'? This is a resumé.

I agree with your sentiment, but not with the "burning your bridges" part. Seems like the fear of burning your bridges keeps many people from speaking frankly about what's happening in the corporate world. And that's important nowadays because as they say, politicians don't run the world, Goldman Sachs does.

Looking forward to wikileaks bank-leaks.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#42
post #17

It's probably all true, but the piece reads like an extended resume. If only I could get NY Times to let me rant about how ethical I am and what trillion-dollar clients I advised.

If you're going to write a piece about leaving a firm, you need to establish why your opinion is more important to your readers than the opinions issued as inevitable rebuttals to this piece. That is purpose of including his resume.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#43
The gentleman era of investment banking is largely mythical. There was a long period where they were notably less scummy and cutthroat than other investment banks (compare: Salomon Brothers in the 1980s) but they were always an investment bank.

The most visible (to a young person) sign of a bank's character is how it treats its employees. The 90+ hour weeks and terrible conditions in the "analyst" program (the term has nothing to do with analysis; it means "whale-shit") are not a new invention; that goes back to the 1980s. Before that, banking was dominated by the Mad Men culture: the hours weren't long but the politics was just as malicious.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you but if you are at his level, you don't really need a resume anymore. Financial industry is all about who you know and from what I can see, he is very well connected.

FYI Executive Director at GS means the same thing as VP, which sounds much more impressive than it actually is. There are literally thousands of them. To put it another way, ED is a level up from Analyst. The real cheese begins at Managing Director -- which is the first level you don't reach through seniority, but through "skill" (or politicking!).

"Greg Smith is resigning today as a Goldman Sachs executive director and head of the firm’s United States equity derivatives business in Europe, the Middle East and Africa."

I could be wrong, but I don't think the number of positions heading business units across continents is that large.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#47

I keep thinking about this article and the recent Google one as well. And I wonder, is this sort of moral decay necessarily part of the current corporate world? Is it possible, over the long run, to have a tech firm, or any other firm, that empowers employees to do what is best for everyone and to hell with the rules? Or is this merely a matter of a few good leaders who get it, and everyone else eventually overcoming…

Currently work at Google, obviously speaking for myself and not my employer. In my experience - yes, this moral decay is a necessary part of the current corporate world. Or any corporate world. Or really, any world without the possibility of failure baked into it. I've seen a lot of idiotic decisions made at Google, many of which have been complained about on Hacker News, many more of which are hidden causes of thing…

I really think that you're completely missing the point in defending Google and maybe Goldman Sachs by saying that their decisions are ok because they are made rationally.

Rationality is emotionless and mechanical. It's about making a reasonable decision based on whatever information is available to you. However, rational decisions do not involve morals, culture, or feelings. This is exactly what companies like Google and Goldman Sachs are being criticized for.

When game theory is baked into your corporate culture, this is what you get. The company starts an inevitable slide from "Do No Evil" into "Make the Best Decision You Can With the Information You Have".

If I look down into my wallet and see no money there, and I'm hungry for lunch, and I decide to steal some money from a little old lady, that may be a perfectly rational decision to make. An outside observer may say I'm being evil, but they don't have a complete information picture about how hungry I am, or how long the line at the ATM is, or that everyone else is eating lunch so I have a duty to my shareholders to do the same.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently work at Google, obviously speaking for myself and not my employer. In my experience - yes, this moral decay is a necessary part of the current corporate world. Or any corporate world. Or really, any world without the possibility of failure baked into it. I've seen a lot of idiotic decisions made at Google, many of which have been complained about on Hacker News, many more of which are hidden causes of thing…

I am not denying that corporate culture takes on a life of its own, and that the system's rationality and the participants are not closely linked. What I am asking is whether great places to work inevitable decay as the company gets large, and if that is the case, what is the point of a startup? Why not seek to make an idea that scales down rather than scales up? Is it all about personal wealth? But for those of us w…

Presumably it has something to do with external stakeholders. The more influence they get, the more they can drive the company towards short-termism and potential destruction. You either need an incisive leader, or a bootstrapped business.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#49
It's interesting how the tone of this article is almost exactly the same as the one about the Microsoft employee that recently quit Google.

Something happens to companies as they get larger, where the culture of a company starts dying from a death-by-a-thousand-cuts, and then they start promoting the wrong people into upper management that seem to really poison a very good company culture. It sounds like Goldman Sachs is one of these companies.

The irony is that I think the shift in mentality came from Wall Street itself pushing the idea of "maximizing shareholder value", in the 80s. This lead to a bunch of financially positive but culturally negative (some would say sociopathic) decisions, such as closing plants that were profitable, but weren't profitable enough. I think Michael Moore had a movie on this called "The Big One".

Forbes has an article on this, calling it "The Dumbest Idea in the World":

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/28/maximizi...

I read the biography on Goldman Sachs, and I don't doubt for one second that there was a historic culture that most of the employees were fiercely proud of. But as the author mentioned, a few mistaken promotions into power and the whole culture of a company can change through death by a thousand cuts. No doubt the same thing is happening at all large companies that started off with great roots. I saw this occur at Yahoo, where completely idiotic decisions were made in order to preserve revenues so that managers' bonuses were left in tact.

Is this something that can be avoided? I'm not sure... corporate culture starts at the top and works its way down. It's something that must be demonstrated by the leaders of the company at every level, and it filters down to the lowest ranks. So if you have a company with strong leadership, then I think it can be staved off for a while, but it requires a relentless focus.

Re: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

#50

The gentleman era of investment banking is largely mythical. There was a long period where they were notably less scummy and cutthroat than other investment banks (compare: Salomon Brothers in the 1980s) but they were always an investment bank. The most visible (to a young person) sign of a bank's character is how it treats its employees. The 90+ hour weeks and terrible conditions in the "analyst" program (the term h…

>The most visible (to a young person) sign of a bank's character is how it treats its employees

Character in a limited sense, but I don't know how much that translates into client satisfaction. Foxconn, Apple, and Disneyland come to mind.

As a trader I officially had a 50 hour week. I stayed for 70+ hours because I found the work I was doing, at least initially, interesting (I was generally the last trader on the desk to go home). Specifically regarding investment bankers, yes they work very long hours, but the analysts there generally see the time as financial boot camp. Besides, the staff senior to them are no less workaholic.

Some start-ups have their employees working 90+ hours. This isn't because they're evil but because they have limited resources, a lot of work, and the people there are amazingly passionate about what they're doing.

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