Live data from Hacker News

Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

152334h.github.io

41–50 of 186 posts

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1. Find papers you're interested in Step 2. Open them Step 3. read them

Step 3.5, see some other interesting paper is referenced in the related work, go to step 1.

Step 3.5-turbo, have ChatGPT summarize papers for you to speed up your reading

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#42
The GPT-3.0 "davinci-instruct-beta" models have been returning non-deterministic logprobs as early as early 2021. This is speculation. CUDA itself often has nondeterminism bugs.

text-davinci-001 and text-davinci-002 were trained through FeedMe and SFT, while text-davinci-003 was RLHF; the models themselves have more variance at high temperature.

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#44
post #14

Off topic > 3 months later, reading a paper while on board a boring flight home, I have my answer. I noticed people from hacker news routinely read scientific papers. This is a habit I envy but don't share. Any tips or sites for someone interested in picking up more science papers to read.

> I noticed people from hacker news routinely read scientific papers.

Highly doubt that. It’s very hard to actually read scientific papers when you are not actively doing research.

You can’t just read a research paper in isolation. It’s next to useless. You need to understand its context, where it stands with regard to its sources and what it brings which is actually new and valuable. It’s nearly impossible to do properly if you are not fully immersed in a research subject.

I don’t even know how you would scheme introduction and sources to filter articles which are immediately obviously useless without being immersed in a field.

I guess you can obviously go though lists of papers which have be deemed worthwhile by someone else or got prices. That solves the filtering issue but then nearly every time you will be better served reading a text book presenting the ideas in said papers.

I fully expect the HN readership to contain a significant amount of students and actual researchers which explain why you encounter people reading papers but these people aside I would be surprised if the habit is common.

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#45
post #7

This is _excellent_ work, I've been adamantly against MoE for a set of reasons, this is the first compelling evidence I've seen that hasn't been on Substack or a bare repeating of rumor. I had absolutely no idea GPT4 was nondeterministic and I use it about 2 hours a day. I can see why a cursory looking wasn't cutting it, they "feel" the same in your memory, a lot of similar vocab usage, but are formatted entirely dif…

GPT4 web chat for two hours a day? I buy that. Using the API repeatedly for the same inputs, eg developing a program, and the non-determinism is hard to miss.

Yeah, it's one of the first things you notice when trying to do some kind of "feed GPT some data and get it to produce a novel answer to a question" task with the API.

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#46
post #34

Not sure I understand the excerpt from the referenced paper. Is it saying that part of its more-efficient inferencing relies on mixing tokens from completely-separate inputs – eg, from other users? And then, depending on what other inputs chance into the same grouping, the relative assignment-to-'experts' varies, and thus the eventual completions? If so, I'd see that as not just introducing non-determinism, but also…

this seems like a plausible outcome, and if true could spell disaster for OpenAI models relative to the competition and open source models. Currently, reliability is one of the core obstacles preventing widespread adoption of LLMs in many business critical workflows. And if these rumors, that GPT-4 is inherently un-deterministic and unreliable, are true then most enterprises are better off finetuning open source LLMs—which are just as capable—for their specific domains. they stand to gain better performance that way anyways, as domain-specific models will always outperform generalist ones

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#47
post #14

Off topic > 3 months later, reading a paper while on board a boring flight home, I have my answer. I noticed people from hacker news routinely read scientific papers. This is a habit I envy but don't share. Any tips or sites for someone interested in picking up more science papers to read.

Honestly a lot are really hard to read. You start with the easy ones, learn the lingo, and then just keep going. Eventually you can enjoy reading the harder ones.

You learn pretty quickly that if you want answers, it's better to just go straight to the source, rather than have it filtered through someone else, where the message can (and often does) get twisted.

What are you interested in reading about? Maybe some people can recommend you some papers to start with.

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#48
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build the habit. When google doesn't return a good result to a specific question, switch to scholar.google.com and start reading abstracts. Everything may seem like an opaque maze at first, but just keep reading and patterns start emerging quickly and become useful.

I don't mind reading research papers, but they're really annoying to read on a phone screen. I remember a few years ago, an HN comment shared a link to some tool that could convert a PDF to single column text and make it more readable on a phone screen, but I can't find it. Anyone remember this or have the link?

> but they're really annoying to read on a phone screen.

+1. I've already read probably 100 research papers this year in search of solutions to some technical problems, mostly while lying on bed with a tablet. I won't read as much without it.

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#49
post #14

Off topic > 3 months later, reading a paper while on board a boring flight home, I have my answer. I noticed people from hacker news routinely read scientific papers. This is a habit I envy but don't share. Any tips or sites for someone interested in picking up more science papers to read.

They read scientific papers in the same way that everyone "read" Capital in the 21st Century, when that was a thing.

Re: Non-determinism in GPT-4 is caused by Sparse MoE

#50
post #14

Off topic > 3 months later, reading a paper while on board a boring flight home, I have my answer. I noticed people from hacker news routinely read scientific papers. This is a habit I envy but don't share. Any tips or sites for someone interested in picking up more science papers to read.

Step 1. Find papers you're interested in Step 2. Open them Step 3. read them

Step 4: do a depth-first lookup of every citation, and read/finish that paper before continuing
Post reply on HN