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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#41

Post by vel0city »

brianwawok wrote: post #15
olliej wrote: post #4

This one actually seems fair - literally the only reason I ever considered Tesla was the range. The only reason I didn’t buy any other EV was because I was waiting for them to catch up to the Tesla range. Turns out that advantage was a lie - I hope their competitors also sue them.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-cons... It's pretty dang high on the list in actual real world tested range.

I had a friend buy a Model Y Long Range (EPA 326mi) over a Mach E AWD Extended Range (EPA 270mi) mainly because the Y supposedly had better advertised range (they were similarly priced at the time). 56mi of range along with the big mental idea of a bit over 300 or under 300.

In Edmonds testing the difference was really only 13mi. Really not that significant in the end.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#42

Post by CameronNemo »

yurishimo wrote: post #36
CameronNemo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sad that we can't just drive 55 on highways. Not even trucks that are towing will drive 55 always.

Why do people need to drive slow? Sometimes you gotta get somewhere. If they are willing to pay the premium to driver faster and follow the law while doing so, what’s the harm?

They are not willing to pay the premium, though.

Tell me when highways, bridges, and streets are not paid by gas taxes -- you won't.

Tell me when I can trade money for reliably sequestered CO2 -- you can't.

edit: I didn't downvote them btw

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#43

Post by secabeen »

MBCook wrote: post #31
asynchronous wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a YouTube video where some guys “maximalised” the range to see how far they could go on one charge, and by reducing weight and disabling cabin AC and going under 25 mph were able to travel I think over 600 miles. Good to know in a pinch.

Honestly the cabin AC makes very little difference. You’re right though, that’s how you set world records. If you drive an EV at like 10 mph you could go a pretty insane distance. But no normal person would ever do that.

Cabin AC doesn't, but Cabin heat can in older vehicles with resistive heating. Heat Pump heating in newer Teslas is in the middle.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#44

Post by therouwboat »

constantcrying wrote: post #7
dragontamer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

>lie to customers Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car. >We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla…

>The algorithm claim seems extremely weak. Unless you can get some actual developer to testify that he was explicitly ordered to build the algorithm to report a range which he knew was impossible to reach or something similar, this seems practically irrelevant.

Of course he was ordered to build it that way, it's not like some worker is just going to decide by himself.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#45

Post by bryanlarsen »

darth_avocado wrote: post #40
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

I think it’s a disingenuous to use this argument. Even if you drive at 25mph on a flat road on a day with moderate temperatures and no wind, Tesla’s range drops quite a lot more than a mile for every mile driven. Like yeah, if you’re using air conditioning and driving at 70 mph, it makes sense your range will drop more. The problem is that they’re pretending under ideal conditions, you can achieve that max range, but…

In my experience, a Tesla driven at 30km/h will exceed its EPA range by about 20%.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#46

Post by sdfignaionio »

jackmott42 wrote: post #23
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

There are two important things you're missing:

1. Tesla's estimates are not "highly accurate". They are alleged to use a deliberately optimistic estimate when the battery is near full, then gradually switch to a more realistic estimate as the battery drains. In particular they are alleged to incorrectly account for the weather. This means the car will always display nearly the advertised number at full charge (and on a test drive). Supposedly Tesla used to use a more accurate estimate but then got orders from on high to fudge the numbers.

2. For other car manufacturers, the range estimates are not terribly inflated. The report from Edmunds claim that most EV models meet or exceed their range estimates, and cars that miss their estimates don't miss by anywhere near as much as Teslas.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#47

Post by jncfhnb »

MBCook wrote: post #28
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

I mean… no, it’s not fraud.

I feel like your example uses numbers that are so aggressive one has suspect that they are not real. I don’t have a stake in this or knowledge beyond a quick Google but the EPA test does not look obviously flawed.

The more pertinent question to me would be whether the Tesla range can genuinely achieve those EPA numbers with a typical car.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#48

Post by mensetmanusman »

MBCook wrote: post #28
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

That’s on the regulators to define a metric, lest EVs compete on made up numbers. EVs are so new of course that organizations are still figuring this out globally.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#49

Post by 7speter »

MBCook wrote: post #28
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

Most, if any, cars don’t get close to their epa fuel economy numbers under “normal” conditions.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#50

Post by TheAlchemist »

itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Lots of people here missing a part of the issue: Tesla receives carbon credits based on the range of the vehicle. If that range was exaggerated, they defrauded the government.

That's interesting ! Could you elaborate please ? Or give some links relevant to how the carbon credits are calculated.
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