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Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

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Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#41

Post by usrusr »

blcknight wrote: post #5

Hard to imagine Britain joining both the Euro and the Schengen zones. I just don’t see the British public not thinking they’re special and demanding exceptions and carve outs just for them.

The first time I went to Tenerife I was deeply puzzled by seeing long immigration queues on TFS. It took me weeks of wondering who those people were, before I realized that they were UK vacationers who didn't enjoy any of the convenience of Schengen. Even Swiss and Norwegians would just walk through like on a domestic flight, UK visitors got special attention.

That day I understood a lot more about brexit (that was still undecided at the time I think) than the day before: those who'd vote leave (and even most of those who'd vote stay) never had the opportunity to enjoy anything about the EU as a live, graspable experience, it had always just been an abstract concept for them. Something-something-economy, nothing that touched their lives.

If you're old enough (or sufficiently well-traveled) to have been stopped at borders, gone through the hassle of foreign currency, it's such an awesome "yes, this is the future!" moment to go to a place where people talk a language you don't understand, road signs are weird, but you never stopped, you can use the cash from home and the only sign of passing the border was the customary SMS telling you that all is fine when the phone logs into the roaming network. UK people never had any of that and I believe that the vote would have gone quite different if they did.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#42

Post by purple_elephant »

There are many uninformed comments in this thread saying that the UK would have to join the Eurozone if it returned to the EU.

No. You only have to adopt the euro if you meet the convergence criteria. One of the criteria is joining ERM II. There's no mechanism that can force a country to join ERM II. This is why Sweden, although theoretically obliged to join the eurozone, still has its own currency.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#43

Post by lifeisstillgood »

I was a remainer (ie anti-Brexit).

This article shows what seems to be becoming a general growing consensus that "some people (prominent campaigners and politicians) lied to us for their own benefit" - and there is a more subtle second consensus of "and then forced a hard brexit for their own career gains".

This is a nice consensus because it has evil people to blame, and removes the blame from 50% of the voting public

I am not sure that's a good idea.

We have more or less proof that 50 % of the country cannot work out basics of social democracy, of trade agreements and referendums. Even things like self interest or which of the bastards is lying to you.

It was a massive act of self harm and it was an act of democracy.

Brexit shows there are viable mental models of the world and there are mental models the equivalent of crayon drawings of the sun and ann apple tree.

How do we get sensible disagreement on the viable ones and laugh the crayon drawings out?

I am always reminded of the woman who told John McCain "I am scared of Obama, he is an Arab". McCains reply was inspiring but the look on his face seemed to me to say "how can I fix this one voter at a time? It will take forever".

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#44

Post by cameronh90 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #15
mutatio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The currency is a hard no, even from hardent remainer quarters. The Euro and the ECB haven't even been a success for the EU as-is, a single fiscal policy cannot reconcile the economies of Germany and Greece. The hubris of the UK submitting to the Euro isn't pragmatic or in the realms of reality. Participation from the UK hardly changes things also, making it come across almost vindictive.

> The Euro and the ECB haven't even been a success for the EU as-is, a single fiscal policy cannot reconcile the economies of Germany and Greece. Of course it has been a success. I (half-German, half-Croatian) grew up in times where each of the borders from Germany to Croatia had anything from 1-4 hours of waiting time, you'd need to exchange currency at each border (at outrageous rates) as well simply to be able to…

No borders on the continent is useful, but not sure what it has to do with currency.

Nowadays when I travel, I just pay with my usual bank or credit card and get good rates without thinking about it. If my bank didn't have good rates, there's Revolut.

The main pain is that the EU hasn't standardised payment systems. So in parts of NL and Germany, you might find your Visa isn't accepted because they only take Maestro, or, in Sweden, Swish, for example.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#45

Post by parineum »

kramerger wrote: post #13
mutatio wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well only even the most pious remainers would accept the Euro as a currency and removing fiscal sovereignty, so it's a total non-starter. The special treatment for the old guard (German automotive, French farming industries) also needs to be expunged.

I don't think Germany and France are getting any special treatment. There might be something for the agriculture or automotive sectors, but it will apply to all countries.

So I guess the EU should just let everyone use pounds as currency.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#46

Post by Biologist123 »

blibble wrote: post #10

remember: the FT have managed to mis-predict every single major UK political event relating to brexit: - they'll vote remain - they'll ignore the referendum result - they won't invoke article 50 - the article 50 court case will prevent it being triggered - we won't exit - we'll stay in the single market they simply have no understanding of how the electorate think (though I suppose it's possible they may eventually g…

Magical thinking generally is alive and well in certain strata of British life. UK politics generally seems to be a game of make believe, with a broad failure to grasp that decline is now baked in.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#47

Post by bombcar »

hcayless wrote: post #35
c7DJTLrn wrote: post #11

There's no way it will happen, the damage has been done and besides, the politicians don't want it. The referendum should've been nullified when the scale of political interference via social media in 2016 came to light. Also, 52% to 48% is not a resounding "yes" and should not have been considered as one.

More to the point 2/4 countries in the UK voted remain and got dragged out of the EU anyway.

I suppose they could dissolve the United Kingdom.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#48

Post by mlyle »

mutatio wrote: post #6
edvards wrote: post #3

If the UK proves itself to be a partner that doesn't want special treatment like before, it sure can be welcomed back by the EU, and if anything it coming back will only strengthen the union by showing that leaving it was considered a mistake in the end. But I still feel skeptical regarding Brits and British politicians actually being ready to accept the fact they're not special and that they will not have special tr…

Well only even the most pious remainers would accept the Euro as a currency and removing fiscal sovereignty, so it's a total non-starter. The special treatment for the old guard (German automotive, French farming industries) also needs to be expunged.

> would accept the Euro as a currency

I don't know why this keeps coming up-- joining the EU does not require adopting the Euro.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#49

Post by brmgb »

mschuster91 wrote: post #15
mutatio wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The currency is a hard no, even from hardent remainer quarters. The Euro and the ECB haven't even been a success for the EU as-is, a single fiscal policy cannot reconcile the economies of Germany and Greece. The hubris of the UK submitting to the Euro isn't pragmatic or in the realms of reality. Participation from the UK hardly changes things also, making it come across almost vindictive.

> The Euro and the ECB haven't even been a success for the EU as-is, a single fiscal policy cannot reconcile the economies of Germany and Greece. Of course it has been a success. I (half-German, half-Croatian) grew up in times where each of the borders from Germany to Croatia had anything from 1-4 hours of waiting time, you'd need to exchange currency at each border (at outrageous rates) as well simply to be able to…

The only country which benefited from the Euro is Germany and they had the audacity to not only refuse the fiscal policies and transfers which might have made that fair but actually undermine the most affected countries like Greece even more. I personally lost all hope for the union after the debt crisis and considering the state of politics and denial of reality in the north of Europe, I really wish we would just leave too. I’m sad we lost the open border with the UK however, genuinely love the country but I’m not sure the rest of the EU is worth it.

Re: Brexit Could Be Reversed - Here's How

#50

Post by kaladin-jasnah »

clever-leap wrote: post #36

Wishful thinking. First the EU needs to change itself so people will want to re-join. Rather it seems that the EU is going opposite direction. After Covid era, I guess no sound person trust its institutions anymore.

Can you elaborate on this? As someone relatively uninformed as to what the EU did during COVID that makes it unsound now.
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