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Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

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Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#41

Post by gghootch »

pg wrote: post #29
gghootch wrote: post #24

When talking about the Apple killer pg states two things. 1. The next product visionary will have a great example in Jobs and Apple. 2. The next Apple probably won't start with a consumer product, but they might be able to make some consumer thingy like Jawbone does. Nest creates a great consumer thingy that's relatively cheap and it's run by an ex Apple employee. Tony Fadell might say he's not pursuing Apple's busin…

Nest is certainly one of the leading candidates, as far as one could tell this early. A thermostat is exactly the right sort of apparently harmless thing to start with.

What other leading candidates can you think of?

Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#42

Post by [deleted] »

aridiculous wrote: post #30

I enjoyed the talk and admired his good use of clarity when talking about the problems. However, the counter to clarity is that it might be a bit too clean for the real world, and that was apparent when answering the questions about copyright at the end. I realize that pg wasn't particularly prepared to be dealing with questions unrelated to the talk, but it was the first time I've seen him not easily handle question…

[deleted]

Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#43

Post by zyfo »

aridiculous wrote: post #39
zyfo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was alarming that pg didn't have a clear moral position when asked about his decision-making process. I would prefer it if people didn't force pg to qualify his statements like a politician. Obviously he could add "of course, this is just a good idea as long as the expected utility of the humanity at large is greater with it than without it on a reasonably long time line." but it would just be an empty phrase. W…

I never said his morality had to be "Responsible, Serious and Altruistic." It looks like you're assuming that morality is a simple construct used only by politicians for deception. In reality, almost every significant, powerful figure I've read about has some guidelines to his or her behavior, even if it's a pluralistic framework. Additionally, it was strange that you projected your own Utilitarian belief system onto…

The "Responsible, Serious and Altruistic" bit was a bit of a straw man I must admit. My point was basically that:

1) if pg doesn't have some well thought out and articulated perspective on moral questions, that's OK - he's not a priest

2) Saying it's alarming is basically pushing him and people like him into taking a (probably artificial) position for the sake of taking one.

3) Just because one is powerful doesn't mean one has to be a role model in all areas of life. This is unnecessary pressure on an individual who hasn't asked for it - he's basically a sort of VC, he isn't running for president - and I don't see anything good coming out of it.

I chose a utilitarian belief system as an example because it felt like the most non-controversial one to make a point. Incidentally, I don't subscribe to it.

Agreed about humanities, but I don't really see the connection to your OP.

Here's a highly related essay by pg, by the way: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#45

Post by bootload »

oemera wrote: post #8

I don't mean to be harsh but after reading the article I couldn't listen to the "Uhhh Ehmmmm"s anymore. Was he just reading the transcript to the guys? A keynote should be without any "uhh"s and "ehmmm"s otherwise you will not get audience IMO.

"... I don't mean to be harsh but after reading the article I couldn't listen to the "Uhhh Ehmmmm"s anymore. ..."

When I hear this kind of complaint about pg's speaking style I'm reminded of Enzo Ferrari ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Ferrari

   'I don't sell cars; I sell engines. The cars I throw 
    in for free since something has to hold the engines 
    in.' Enzo Ferrari
If you substitute "speeches" for "cars" and "ideas" for "engines", the quote still holds.

Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#46

Post by n8agrin »

gghootch wrote: post #24

When talking about the Apple killer pg states two things. 1. The next product visionary will have a great example in Jobs and Apple. 2. The next Apple probably won't start with a consumer product, but they might be able to make some consumer thingy like Jawbone does. Nest creates a great consumer thingy that's relatively cheap and it's run by an ex Apple employee. Tony Fadell might say he's not pursuing Apple's busin…

Supposedly Nest is on Apple's blacklist. My source says any Apple employee caught even talking to a Nest employee is immediately fired. I can't verify whether or not this is true, but if it is, interesting that Apple feels that threatened.

Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#47

Post by aridiculous »

zyfo wrote: post #43
aridiculous wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said his morality had to be "Responsible, Serious and Altruistic." It looks like you're assuming that morality is a simple construct used only by politicians for deception. In reality, almost every significant, powerful figure I've read about has some guidelines to his or her behavior, even if it's a pluralistic framework. Additionally, it was strange that you projected your own Utilitarian belief system onto…

The "Responsible, Serious and Altruistic" bit was a bit of a straw man I must admit. My point was basically that: 1) if pg doesn't have some well thought out and articulated perspective on moral questions, that's OK - he's not a priest 2) Saying it's alarming is basically pushing him and people like him into taking a (probably artificial) position for the sake of taking one. 3) Just because one is powerful doesn't me…

I admire your balanced temper in your response (as my earlier was a bit charged), but I can't say I'm swayed.

Overall, I think pg was just thrown off-guard by the question and could probably come up with a more adequate answer off-stage, particularly because he has a background in philosophy. I was using him, wrongly, as an example of the technocratic tendency to not consider morality in decision-making. However, I'll continue here with a response to your objections pretending he really is a less well-rounded VC:

I think your responses are emblematic of a current societal tendency to be easy on leadership and powerful people, because they're "just human." I don't agree with that tendency to not hold leaders accountable to a higher standard, and I don't think it's right for a person with that much power to not have a clear moral position on who he or she does business with. We can all disagree on what we think is right, but I think there are many who have been led to believe that they simply can't expect more out of certain people because it's not "fair." I'm merely providing a counter-opinion to that.

About the humanities, that was said out of frustration that you/others may not have been exposed to moral frameworks outside of the traditional religious and political tie-ins. It was an incorrect sweeping generalization, but regardless, it doesn't hurt anyone to be reminded of these subjects now and again :)

Re: Paul Graham PyCon 2012 keynote

#48

Post by michaelkscott »

I have been debating whether or not to say anything because I know by saying something you may have hurt feelings. And I have no obligation to tell you everything I know or think. But on reflection I have found it more honest -- honest in the older sense of "straightforward" or "direct" -- to share with you that I found the talk enjoyable and interesting. I think there are many benefits in starting small.
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