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Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

nytimes.com

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Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#41

Post by miley_cyrus »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #16
BurningFrog wrote: post #15

Obligatory reminder that "negotiations" in this case just means that Medicare dictates a price.

Medicare dictating a price sounds fine. Gravy train is ending (pharma dictating the price) and pharma is in shambles. I’d like the Times and the media in general to start reporting the names of the individuals participating in these efforts, instead of faceless corporations.

How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts?

There is no logical reason that pharma should be on the receiving end of all this hate. Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives.

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#42

Post by toomuchtodo »

miley_cyrus wrote: post #41
toomuchtodo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare dictating a price sounds fine. Gravy train is ending (pharma dictating the price) and pharma is in shambles. I’d like the Times and the media in general to start reporting the names of the individuals participating in these efforts, instead of faceless corporations.

How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts? There is no logical reason that pharma should be on the receiving end of all this hate. Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives.

> How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts?

If I work in an industry where human life depends on it, yes! I entirely agree. This is not a market to corner, regardless of your innovation and how clever you are.

> Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives.

Positive contributions must not lead to “these people can hold those who have medical needs economically hostage.” Don’t like the deal, get out of pharma and let other people (operating under a different ideology on the topic) build.

https://time.com/6257866/big-pharma-patent-abuse-drug-pricin...

> Today, 1 in 4 Americans cannot afford to take their medications as prescribed. Too many seniors are having to ration their treatments to get by until their next social security check arrives. And contrary to what industry lobbyists argue, soaring drug prices are not the inevitable result of research and development costs to bring breakthrough drugs to market. It’s time to put this widely debunked excuse to bed.

https://www.i-mak.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Overpatente...

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#43

Post by darth_avocado »

retrac wrote: post #12
callmeal wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Justice Thomas said (in 2001) that for the pay they receive no one would take the job if not for the gifts^H^H^H^H^H bribes. FTFY. As of 2022, the salary of a US Supreme Court Justice is $274,200 per year. The Chief Justice of the United States, who is the head of the Supreme Court, receives a slightly higher salary of $286,700 per year. Of course no one will take that job. How much does a banana cost again? $10?

How much could a good lawyer with a long and distinguished career make in the private market? That's how much we should be paying our judges. If you want the best you have to at least be moderately competitive with what's on offer. I have a similar opinion about legislators -- we probably want top tier doctors and executives and lawyers as our legislators. Being elected to office should not be a step down in their li…

1. Supreme Court justices historically haven’t been the best, just the most cozy with politicians

2. Even if Justices were paid $10M, the corruption wouldn’t go away, because greed never goes away

Instead of focusing on the fact that justices are taking bribes because their salary is modest, therefore we need to pay them more, we should focus on nominating justices who don’t have such weak morals and ethics.

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#44

Post by Applejinx »

SoftTalker wrote: post #26
retrac wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much could a good lawyer with a long and distinguished career make in the private market? That's how much we should be paying our judges. If you want the best you have to at least be moderately competitive with what's on offer. I have a similar opinion about legislators -- we probably want top tier doctors and executives and lawyers as our legislators. Being elected to office should not be a step down in their li…

It may be idealistic, but I think that those elected to office or appointed to influential positions such as judges should do so largely out of a sense of public service instead of personal enrichment. For people who are motivated by greed or power, no amount of compensation will be enough, they will always be tempted to to increase their power and wealth by taking bribes or political favors. Pay them a respectable s…

This. You cannot simply normalize graft on the grounds that somebody might exist who can out-bribe a government. Any more than you normalize murder because everybody eventually dies some way or other.

Having it act like the same playing field got us in this mess. I'll note there are some supreme court justices who apparently don't take bribes or suggest their power should be supplemented by enough bribery to equal that of the best private sector lawyers and/or the best mob bosses…

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#45

Post by Applejinx »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #23
amrocha wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you, but at some point the number stops mattering. What's the difference in lifestyle between 300K and 500K? 500K and 1M? And even if there is a difference, is that worth the opportunity cost of paying everyone else a little bit better? It's not a very popular opinion, but there should be a maximum salary imo. Beyond a certain number money is a means of acquiring power and influence, and it feel…

> What's the difference in lifestyle between 300K and 500K? 500K and 1M? Pretty massive, particularly when it comes to taking vacations and bringing friends who can’t afford them with you. $300k barely permits that domestically. $1 or 2mm lets you do that comfortably all over the world. Or, alternatively, single handedly saving restaurants you love or a buddy’s small business.

Why do you have to have ultimate power and oversight of an entire branch of government AND flit comfortably all over the world?

Shouldn't ultimate power be its own reward? That and ten times the salary of most people…

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#46

Post by Applejinx »

Kye wrote: post #25
johndhi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To answer your question, lawyers of the capacity of the SCOTUS justices could expect to make about 4 million a year.

What's the value of a lifetime appointment?

AS the final arbiter of the legal system…

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#47

Post by gibbitz »

SoftTalker wrote: post #29
CogitoCogito wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure maybe they have to say “yes” to the price, but I’m asking if they have to actually provide the drugs. Could they just decide not to sell them at that price or to just sell less?

Selling at an artificially low price will result in shortages. Always does. Short of nationalizing these companies, there is no way to "force" them to produce anything.

We are talking about prescription drugs here right? This isn't about something people want it's about something doctors are prescribing individuals for their health or survival. Regular supply and demand should not apply here. If it does this is an indication of another pharma industry issue -- creating consumer demand for drugs through advertising.

Using goodRX has really opened my eyes to the shady practices of drug pricing. The same drug with or without insurance at different pharmacies can range in price by 80+% (often with the higher rate "discounted" for insurance). The drug companies are willing to be this flexible with the prices when dealing with retailers. In the case of a Wal-Mart or Costco the negotiations don't sound so different. So what's the difference with what's happening with the government? It's on public record not in a private corporate meeting room. The business side of Healthcare in this country follows protection racket economics and it doesn't look like this is going to change any time soon.

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#48

Post by Applejinx »

epistasis wrote: post #35
mc32 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gov should do what Singapore does: pay senior officials well but exterminate any sort of non monetary perquisites and impeach or fire violators. Also ban any gov person from trading on insider info. Also, if I had it my way, no government person while in the employ of the gov, should be able to vote at the level they represent or work in. If they’re fed employees no voting in fed elections and so on. Yes, I know…

For a long time, basic pride by Supreme Court justices kept this in check. But now it's time for external enforcement. There are too many justices who think that they embody law and order in themselves, and therefore no matter what they do they are obeying the law, since they are the law. Similar to most police forces these days.

Oh, they are, in theory and in practice. Their literal job is embodying law and order and they make up the rules, and everyone else is stuck with what they decree, handing down final decisions like legal Gods.

I do not get how they then turn around and insist on also having uncountable wealth. Surely there are a lot of people who would be content with just having unaccountable power? Maybe they should make minimum wage, while also having final say over what law is.

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#49

Post by dantheman »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #24
jmclnx wrote: post #3

>Supreme Court might be sympathetic to some of the industry’s arguments No surprise here, the US Supreme Court is now just like the rest of the US Gov, they are very happy to take bribes. And due to how the US Gov is structured, no way to stop them from holding out their hand. So getting appointed to that Court is a great gig, you do not even have to care about the law these days.

“Now”? Seems like this has been going on for a very long time. We started paying attention now. As for the US gov and institutionalized corruption I highly recommend Lester Lessig’s work around political donations reform as the first step to democracy in the US. We the people and the republic we must reclaim is an excellent summary of the issue and the solution: https://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people…

How about something far simpler - reduce to the us government to only enumerated powers. If they want to do something not enumerated pass an amendment.

Re: Drugmakers are ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ to halt Medicare price negotiations

#50

Post by owisd »

miley_cyrus wrote: post #39
zer8k wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they're fighting to keep the price on rare lifesaving drugs. They are fighting to keep the price of insulin, cholesterol medication, blood pressure medication, and various other "public good medications" commonly used by medicare recipients as high as possible. Its the same tactic doctors use when dealing with medicare. I've been to several doctors that won't take it. The reasoning is obvious: your insu…

Not true: insulin is not a drug whose price is being negotiated here ( https://www.jmcp.org/doi/full/10.18553/jmcp.2023.29.3.229 ). The drugs whose prices are being negotiated are the brand new ones, the ones that took billions of dollars to develop. Without the promise of a payoff, future R&D will be halted, and humanity won't get benefit from the new medicines.

You’re assuming that the return pharma companies get is the absolute minimum they would be prepared to accept in order to do R&D, but I suspect there’s quite a lot of slack that the regulator could take in. The FCC fixed the price that AT&T could charge back in the monopoly days yet Bell Labs continued to churn out research for the benefit of humanity.
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