Live data from Hacker News

The illusion of AI’s existential risk

noemamag.com

41–50 of 154 posts

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t need to be consumer goods. $1000 spent on clothes is the same as $1000 spent on GPUs as far as GDP is concerned. Headless businesses swapping dollars around creates plenty of GDP with few to no people involved.

Just a tinge of broken window fallacy there?

If I understand your point, the broken window fallacy is to say that a child who breaks a window has actually done something good for the economy by keeping glass makers and installers employed. Obviously this isn’t true because those people could be building new things instead of fixing the old.

Well, a huge portion of our economy is in fixing the old. Why waste so much money on healthcare for humans when we could use it to build bigger and better things. We have whole portions of the economy like food production whose entire purpose is to keep people alive. What a waste. The far more efficient option is to eliminate those people and let machines do the work. Even if GDP goes down, ultimate productivity goes up.

The same can be said for entertainment, hospitality, most education (we spend 20+ years educating people before they can meaningfully contribute) and marketing. A broken window theory might say these industries contribute to the economy and give people jobs, but actually they accomplish little.

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#42

I don’t understand why economic disruption and human obsolescence isn’t considered an existential risk. We could end up in a world where 99.99% of people are redundant and useless cost centers for our GDP maximizing economic paradigm. In that case, you don’t need killer robots in order to push humanity towards near-extinction. The invisible hand will smite them. But don’t worry, TED Talk attendee. The obsoletariat mo…

Given that the number of people in agriculture declined from 90% to 10% over the past 200 years or so, I'm less worried about disruption like this. People are remarkably retrainable, and just because current jobs no longer exist doesn't mean we won't create new ones out of thin air (like marketing, or Youtubers, or film lighting specialists).

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#43
post #27

I don’t understand why economic disruption and human obsolescence isn’t considered an existential risk. We could end up in a world where 99.99% of people are redundant and useless cost centers for our GDP maximizing economic paradigm. In that case, you don’t need killer robots in order to push humanity towards near-extinction. The invisible hand will smite them. But don’t worry, TED Talk attendee. The obsoletariat mo…

> I don’t understand why economic disruption and human obsolescence isn’t considered an existential risk. Because that's the goal of our economic system! If everything could be made with no human labor requirement, then the price of these goods is going to trend towards zero. The disruption is going to cause pain, but ultimately that's what we've always been after.

> If everything could be made with no human labor requirement, then the price of these goods is going to trend towards zero. The disruption is going to cause pain, but ultimately that's what we've always been after.

I would argue that our economic system is built on the accumulation of power, not an ultimate goal of zero marginal cost production. That's why cheap drugs keep getting expensive, among a litany of other examples.

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#44

Probably things would become clearer if what we currently describe as 'AI' we instead term as 'Statistical Pattern Regurgitator' or similar. Any serious attempt at AI would: need to be trained on reality - like people are trained; need to overcome the cardinality barrier - digital systems can only approximate analogue systems; and need to demonstrate spontaneous language emergence driven by survival in a social envir…

Why wouldn’t you call a human brain “statistical pattern regurgitator” as well, if it comes to this? Matching learned patterns is a big part of how brains work.

I don’t see why a strong AI _needs_ to be trained specifically on reality. Imagine an alien race that sees world in X-Rays and neutrinos. An alien AI researcher claims that a “true intelligences” must train on the same inputs, and all those systems trained on the part of the spectrum between infrared and ultraviolet only fake intelligence.

I don’t see why intelligence has to be analogue in any way. Analogue systems are inherently noisy and contain limited amount of useful information, so you can always faithfully approximate them using digital representations.

If I am not mistaken Deepmind has shown spontaneous emergence of communication around 5 years ago when training agents in multi-player team shooters.

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#45
post #4

We live in a very confusing, transitory time. Right now there's a large chunk of people who are convinced that we are a few years away from extinction if we do not ration out GPUs and bomb illegal clusters of compute, while at the same time there's a large chunk that believes that a car can never navigate a single-lane one-way tunnel safely without a driver (ie, The Boring Company). Absolutely wild.

> a car can never navigate a single-lane one-way tunnel safely without a driver (ie, The Boring Company). I think the criticisms of the Boring Company are more "small diameter tunnels are a bad way to build high-throughput underground infrastructure, and autonomous cars will not solve that"

"small diameter tunnels" + "autonomous cars" kind of sounds like a subway train.

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#46

We live in a very confusing, transitory time. Right now there's a large chunk of people who are convinced that we are a few years away from extinction if we do not ration out GPUs and bomb illegal clusters of compute, while at the same time there's a large chunk that believes that a car can never navigate a single-lane one-way tunnel safely without a driver (ie, The Boring Company). Absolutely wild.

I've only seen grifters, hysterics, or the ignorant talking about existential AI risk. A lot of people just nods their heads and go along, but I don't think there are many that have really thought about it (and understand what modern AI is) that really belive the risk. It's more like political polarization where people dwell on something they don't agree with to the point where they treat it as if the world is going…

> instead of trying to actually debate the points raised, which are absurd

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone

“Appeal to the stone, also known as argumentum ad lapidem, is a logical fallacy that dismisses an argument as untrue or absurd. The dismissal is made by stating or reiterating that the argument is absurd, without providing further argumentation. This theory is closely tied to proof by assertion due to the lack of evidence behind the statement and its attempt to persuade without providing any evidence.

Appeal to the stone is a logical fallacy.”

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#47
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone built what is essentially a fancy markov chain that was trained to look convincing to people and people think that's going to lead to AGI lol.

"Introducing the AI Mirror Test, which very smart people keep failing" https://www.theverge.com/23604075/ai-chatbots-bing-chatgpt-i...

99% of what people do day to day is repetitive/unoriginal so it is not too surprising that this is happening, but I wonder if we are really any closer to an AI that can develop a novel and important scientific theory or mathematical result for instance? When can we expect AI to resolve the quantum gravity issue? If it can't do that, but eventually humans do, what does that say about AI I wonder?

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#48
One day, someone came up with the Transformer architecture for neural networks. The ideas didn't quite come out of nowhere, but their impact did - I don't think that anyone predicted the degree to which ChatGPT and its ilk are superior to LSTMs and the like. More importantly, nobody predicted the details, the way that the GPTs behave, the way they're willing to invent facts like they're spooling out plausible thoughts without being constrained to observed reality.

From a history-of-technology standpoint, the state of the art for generative AI went from LSTMs to ChatGPT overnight. There was no warning. Nobody could have looked at the Attention Is All You Need paper and predicted how much it would improve the state of the art.

And worst of all, we already know that AIs can be hostile. What else is a public corporation's corporate bureaucracy but a Chinese Room running an AI whose goal is to maximize quarterly dividends? What else is a government but another Chinese Room trying to survive? We talk about corporations being faceless or friendly, we ascribe them wants and needs and behaviors and habits, we give them names, and they suffer natural selection and mutation and reproduce and evolve over time so as to select from those bureaucracies that are most fit for survival. And this class of AI is already responsible for global climate change and the Cold War and so many other things that might already be on the path to push us into extinction.

LLMs are nowhere near as humanlike as a corporation. Corporations are bound by regulations and capitalism and basic human decency. It is absolutely possible to build an LLM whose fundamental goal is to kill people. All you have to do is tell ChatGPT to pretend it's playing a game of global thermonuclear war, and some joker on 4chan would do that in a heartbeat.

So what? Why does this matter?

We have no way to predict when the next revolution in AI capability will occur.

We have no way to predict what the next revolution will be.

We have no way to predict the capabilities of the next generation of generative AIs.

We have no way to predict how the next generation of AIs will "think", insofar as they do.

And because we have no predictions, we have no way to prepare.

So the real question is, how much risk are you willing to tolerate? Are you wiling to take a coin flip on it? A spin of the cylinder? A roll of the dice? Because that's what we're looking at here - the next generation of AIs has no reason to be any less inimical to human existence than the examples we already have, and AI will _only_ get better.

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#49
post #45
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a car can never navigate a single-lane one-way tunnel safely without a driver (ie, The Boring Company). I think the criticisms of the Boring Company are more "small diameter tunnels are a bad way to build high-throughput underground infrastructure, and autonomous cars will not solve that"

"small diameter tunnels" + "autonomous cars" kind of sounds like a subway train.

Just add tracks, weld the cars together, remove the driving seats, replace the fancy NNs by vintage fuzzy logic and you're there!

Re: The illusion of AI’s existential risk

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, everything is owned by a human. But does it have to be 8 billion humans? Why not 8 million or even 8 thousand? If humans provide literally zero economic value and their costs are significant, what can our economic systems say about whether they should even exist? It’s Macroeconomic Changes Have Made it Impossible for Me to Want to Pay You [1] but on a global level. [1] https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/macroe…

Functioning societies are a lot more than economic systems.

Yes, but at our current scale? At first glance it really seems that our simple economical metrics are a good way to have billions of humans living largely peacefully together – while ruining their environment of course.
Post reply on HN