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Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

wsj.com

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Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#41

Post by hcks »

veave wrote: post #14
code-blooded wrote: post #9

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't…

I've read this comment (or variations of it) so many times I am starting to wonder if it's a joke that I'm missing. Or simply propaganda. I understand that you are in tech and are happy with your position, but consider the lives of millions who are unemployed, or those who can't afford to turn their AC on or fix their car when it breaks down. Not to mention how much prices have increased.

Europeans have a strong ability to cope for their declining standards of life.

They’ll mention how about they have great cities/safety/etc but you’ll notice they never say which city/country exactly they’re talking about (as in let’s pretend all of Europe is Switzerland)

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#42

Post by roydivision »

code-blooded wrote: post #9

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't…

(European, working in IT). Agree for the most part. However getting used to it is an other matter. My money used to go much further, pay rises are rarer, the cost of living is going up. One feels like one is running to stand still sometimes.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#43

Post by edem »

code-blooded wrote: post #9

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't…

Where you live (which country)?

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#44

Post by hef19898 »

Garvi wrote: post #3

The doubling of energy prices pretty much wiped out the heavy industry sector around here. I remember the German heavy industry Rhein area unions protesting this in Berlin without much media coverage a few months ago.

Industry sectors are not being wiped out that fast so.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#45

Post by rcarr »

_g7d8 wrote: post #28
remarkEon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent about a month in Europe for the last three years on vacation and travel there for work semi-frequently. I've considered moving (wife says no, for now). I agree with you on the finance part. I'd need to accrue some significant coin to make this move make sense financially (plus finish becoming fluent). What I'd tell you is this "cope" isn't really cope. Americans just don't have many options for cities that…

You don’t need to become fluent in a European language before moving there. Most expats don’t. Having some familiarity will help, it’ll become much easier to learn the language when you’re actually in the environment, and no one will expect you to suddenly speak their language when you get there.

I would say this depends on the country. You can obviously survive without learning the language but you are definitely better off learning it, particularly if you want to integrate with locals. It’s also country dependent. Somewhere like the Netherlands or one of the Nordics where everyone speaks fluent English you’ll probably be ok not learning but if you tried just speaking English in France they’ll consider you a massive arsehole.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#46

Post by t8sr »

Most new GDP growth since the 90s has and will continue to come from capturing new industries, like large scale web tech, genetic technology, space flight and modern investment finance.

For all of these industries, you need a critical mass of specialists and capital, and so they can only be captured by very large companies. (Although SMBs can survive in some parts of the value chain, which is where Switzerland seems to live.)

Americans (and the PRC) are very good at creating large new companies. Europe not so much - we have the money and universities, but also a lot of German Angst and a complicated internal market, not to mention heavy regulation.

Being around startups, I’m also pretty surprised how unsophisticated many EU investors are - good ideas get severely underfunded, while everyone piles into random ML and crypto scams, only to loose all their money.

Over time, this adds up to missing growth compared to the Americans. And we're so used to being rich that we can't conceive of what the continent will look like once the money is gone, so long-term economic outlook doesn't get much attention from the electorate.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#47

Post by prasoonds »

code-blooded wrote: post #9

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't…

I assume you're a tech worker - that places you in the top 5-10% of the population, wealth and income wise. Most of the 'other half' isn't doing so well - living in shared apartments well into their late 30s, never being able to afford a home, no kids, no travel except for a handful of cheap spots and staying in hostels, eating out perhaps a handful of times a month, many small quality of life things that add up (old crappy phones/laptops, no dish washer/dryer, buying cheap quality food in supermarkets because that's all you can afford etc.) and suddenly, life isn't so rosy.

> walkable cities, great public transportation, safety

These are great upsides for sure, no arguments

> healthier food

As I said, only if you can afford it. I would guess about 70-80% of the population can't - they shop at discount grocery stores and get cheap foods, usually of terrible quality

> free education and healthcare

Healthcare is a sham. Pray that you don't need anything 'complex' ever. The GPs will talk to you for 2 minutes max, tell you something generic (go rest, green tea, ibuprofen) and tell you to be on your way. Getting appointments at specialists usually takes weeks on average and can often take months. It's very good if you have a costly treatment for a chronic disease, however.

Education is severely underfunded and getting your kids into a good kindergarten is a massive undertaking, especially in a large city. You have to start usually an year in advance. Higher education, while free, is likewise underfunded (look at any university rankings for research output)

The collapsing population means that the pension liabilities of countries are growing quickly and pretty much everyone who's working age today should expect their pension to only cover 25-50% of their living costs. But, no one's saving anything and people don't seem to realize this fact.

Yes the quality of life is decent - for now. The trajectory of many things that make it so however appears to be going downhill. The worst part though that that most europeans have their head in the sand about it and as a result, no one's pushing for any changes.

I love living here but for all the things I said before, I don't think I'll stay.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#48

Post by rob74 »

Many of the examples given in the article are complete rubbish:

> The French are eating less foie gras and drinking less red wine.

foie gras involves torturing animals, and drinking less alcohol is healthier, so good for them!

> Across Germany, meat and milk consumption has fallen to the lowest level in three decades

yes, more people are eating less meat - good for them and for the environment!

> TooGoodToGo, a company founded in Denmark in 2015 that sells leftover food from retailers and restaurants, has 76 million registered users across Europe

using food at or past its sell-by date instead of throwing it away? Now we can't have that, can we?

At this point, I was waiting for a line about how so many of these poor, poor Europeans are now forced to use bicycles or public transportation, which must surely be because they can't afford a car or the gas prices. But luckily it didn't come (except for the poor woman who has to "share a car with her partner’s father").

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#49

Post by ramblerman »

hcks wrote: post #41
veave wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read this comment (or variations of it) so many times I am starting to wonder if it's a joke that I'm missing. Or simply propaganda. I understand that you are in tech and are happy with your position, but consider the lives of millions who are unemployed, or those who can't afford to turn their AC on or fix their car when it breaks down. Not to mention how much prices have increased.

Europeans have a strong ability to cope for their declining standards of life. They’ll mention how about they have great cities/safety/etc but you’ll notice they never say which city/country exactly they’re talking about (as in let’s pretend all of Europe is Switzerland)

Swiss cities are consistently among the most expensive in the world. Food is bad. Very xenophobic society.

It has a lot of great things too ofc. But I wouldn’t consider it representative of the nicer parts of Europe (vs pure financial optimization) mentioned above such as working less, walking, biking in the city.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#50

Post by raverbashing »

astrange wrote: post #15
code-blooded wrote: post #9

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't…

Just think about having to post this comment every time Americans ask why you don't have ice water, air conditioning or clothes dryers, and why you have half their purchasing power and are buried in cookie banners. Btw, the main reason people think European food tastes better than US is because we enrich our flour with extra nutrients. You just don't like the taste of iron.

Dryer - check (it's the slow type but I'll get back to it in a minute)

Fridge - regular sized ones (that is, full height) are not uncommon

AC - not a problem in the hotter places and it is getting better in the not so hot places (also if you're booking an Airbnb definitely check this)

"oh but the dryer doesn't do anything" it absolutely does, for most of them select the 'Iron' or 'Cupboard' level of dryness instead of the time. It does take a long time, so just throw it in the night and have a day/night or peak electricity contract. Unless you're overloading it or think someone would go out in 5C/40F weather with humid clothes

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