Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

blog.jgc.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 119 posts

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#41

Post by jmduke »

chc wrote: post #34
jmduke wrote: post #9

This isn't high school; there's nothing productive or rational about assigning labels to yourself or others. Judge someone by the quality of their work and the output of their lives, not how they dress or the culture they associate themselves with.

This sounds nice and everything, but actually, there's a lot that's productive and rational about assigning labels to yourself and others. If you needed to carefully evaluate the sum of every participant's life before every interaction (rather than caching the result of that evaluation in a set of labels), you would be paralyzed. Humans simply don't have the mental capacity to constantly think that deeply about every…

Absolutely. But there's a difference between subconsciously creating labels in your head and writing blog posts about subcultures.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#42

Post by fiblye »

Wilya wrote: post #16
goldmab wrote: post #11

Why are people so angry? It seems like these guys are mostly just acting silly. I don't think it's particularly interesting or funny or whatever, but that's no reason to be mad at them.

I'd be very sad if that loud minority made it so that non-technical people associate "programmer" with the image of a drunk frat boy. That's not going to happen, of course, but I think people judge that this sort of guys give a bad image of the programmers, as a community.

I don't think that these guys will be what give programmers a bad image. If anything, it's the fact that we're completely unwelcoming to anybody who doesn't fit the nerd stereotype in some way. The only exceptions is our openness to all women, and the article's main point was that he doesn't like these guys because they potentially scare off women. Women aren't all delicate little flowers that cry whenever a "brogrammer" is around. Hell, loads of women like these guys, just like loads of guys like "sexy" women who act cold and distant.

Most of those "drunk frat boys" someday grow up and get jobs somewhere. They're always the rare guy that everybody at their workplace hates, so I don't think anybody will ever legitimately associate programmers with party dudes. If anything, we're all lumped together as smug assholes who love to complain about other men's lifestyles.

I don't really care what someone does in their free time. If they can code well and they don't get in the way of my job, then they're fine. If their idea of a good weekend is going to a party with naked women, then I don't care. Claiming they're sexist is putting women on a pedestal, because some women chose to go to a party to meet such guys, and they're going to go back to their workplace and brag about the hot guys they saw at the party.

I'm not even a "brogrammer" by any means, but I hate how much male programmers go out of their way to claim to be morally superior.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#43

Post by icegreentea »

jmduke wrote: post #9

This isn't high school; there's nothing productive or rational about assigning labels to yourself or others. Judge someone by the quality of their work and the output of their lives, not how they dress or the culture they associate themselves with.

Which conversely means that as long a "brogrammer" isn't negatively effecting the working environment, then you should judge him solely on his work too.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#44

Post by jiggy2011 »

feedbackloop wrote: post #30

One thing I've always liked about programming is the technical culture of getting things done. What offends me about this 'brogrammer' idea is that it tries to turn programming into yet another fashion. "We're the cool programmers" is particularly offensive because it alienates people who have been doing work in this area for some time. I can understand wanting to refine your image but do it without slapping labels o…

Perhaps it's a way of asserting some sort of superiority if you discover that you are really just a mediocre programmer.

Like saying "I don't understand haskell but that's cool because I can totally bong a bear unlike you losers"

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#45

Post by monkeygus »

goldmab wrote: post #11

Why are people so angry? It seems like these guys are mostly just acting silly. I don't think it's particularly interesting or funny or whatever, but that's no reason to be mad at them.

Like the article says, it's really off putting to women programmers. I would never consider applying for a job at a company that was proud of its 'brogramming' culture. We don't need more sexist workplaces.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#46

Post by fuzzix »

DarkShikari wrote: post #4

From Urban Dictionary: brogrammer, n.: A programmer who breaks the usual expectations of quiet nerdiness and opts instead for the usual trappings of a frat-boy: popped collars, bad beer, and calling everybody "bro". Despised by everyone, especially other programmers. Ex: Oh my god, John is talking about football and chicks again. That guy is such a brogrammer. See also: programmer, frat boy, bro, douchebag, developer…

"It isn't a joke, either"

My predecessor at the current job fits the description - he was renowned for his sexist remarks and attitude. Don't know if he regards himself a "brogrammer".

Turns out a guy who doesn't give a shit what people think of his personality also doesn't give a shit about his code...

I would apply the term "brogrammer" to him in a strictly pejorative sense.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#47

Post by jiggy2011 »

philwelch wrote: post #35
jiggy2011 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sort of my point. The original nerdy stereotype is somebody with big teeth , a comb-over and a checked shirt tucked into corduroy pants, possibly also a neck beard. The next generation of nerds distanced themselves from this somewhat by wearing heavy metal T shirts, having long hair and tattoos. This became uncool too, so now we have the "brogrammer" with designer polo shirts and dark glasses. It's interesting…

The difference is that heavy metal was never "cool", metalheads were always misfits just like nerds. OK, maybe with the exception of hair metal, but we don't talk about that.

That's true but I think it was more that people thought it was better to be seen as an "edgy misfit" rather than an out and out nerd.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#48

Post by aValidUserName »

potatolicious wrote: post #15
_delirium wrote: post #2

Huh, I had thought the "brogrammer" thing was a parody, not a serious self-description. I usually run across variants of the descriptor "bro-ish" as derogatory, not something people actually want to call themselves; for example, "brostep" is a derogatory term for a subgenre of dubstep that dubstep purists don't like, not something people proudly call their own music. But I'm admittedly totally out of this particular…

I thought so too, but the word I hear from people I know at Facebook (where the term originated) indicate that the people who started this are pretty dead serious about the concept. Thankfully I work with no brogrammers - this might actually start being a hiring disadvantage if companies are known to be brogrammer-heavy.

It's a very useful indicator that the company is looking to hire barely-sentient PHP monkeys rather than actual programmers to solve interesting problems.

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#49

Post by Tycho »

jessedhillon wrote: post #33
_bbs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really a problem with nerds being groomed well and fashionably dressed? The people they describe are off-putting because of their attitude, not because their appearance clashes with the archetypal image of a nerd.

What's common with all those behaviors he described is that the way they are usually carried, and the predictable "maleness" with which they are chosen, create an air of trying way too hard -- this is something I defintely experience when meeting many programmers. The irony is that the most defining characteristic of authentic masculinity, for most women I know, is the sense that a man believes in hemself and does wh…

So does that mean femininity does not entail belief in one's self and doing what feels right?

Re: Call yourself a 'brogrammer'? Then get the hell away from me.

#50

Post by iamgilesbowkett »

_delirium wrote: post #24
jiggy2011 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is , if this catches on with recruiters who will use it very non ironically like "rockstar". How long until we see "Brogrammer needed" ads

Now that I think of it, there was actually a YC company's recruiting post on HN that used it (not entirely clear how seriously), which created a bit of a backlash: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3168038 I think it's probably not a good recruiting strategy, because it telegraphs both that this might be a problematic opening for women, and that anyone worried they'll be deemed too egghead/nerdy might want to pass.…

a job ad that implies that nerdy programmers may not be welcome really restricts the size of the candidate pool.

that's what I find funny about the whole thing. "we're hiring programmers! no nerds." that's an unlikely strategy for success even when programmers are easy to hire -- which they are currently not.

Post reply on HN