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Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

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41–50 of 63 posts

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#41

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

The sweet potato is an extremely unusual case in that it was transported across the Pacific by Polynesians before the Colombian exchange! In fact, this is some of the most reliable evidence that the preindustrial Polynesians reached South America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato_cultivation_in_Pol...

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#43
post #21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

> Pizza predates the use of the tomato. What makes it pizza specifically at that point?

Pizza is cooked on one side; it is cooked after adding toppings; it is cooked rapidly in an oven. Most flatbreads are flipped; some are cooked with open heat.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#44
post #38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pizza predates the use of the tomato. What makes it pizza specifically at that point?

Yeah, I find the idea that a flattened leavened (maybe?) bread with something on top is "pizza" to be quite a stretch.

Some of my favorite pizzas have no tomato sauce:

* White clam pizza

* Amici's Milano or Trentino

* State of Mind's Peas on Peas on Peas (when it's in season)

Why would the lack of tomato sauce make it not a pizza?

(You didn't specifically mention tomato sauce, but GP did and it sounds like you are in agreement? Please forgive me if I misunderstood.)

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I find the idea that a flattened leavened (maybe?) bread with something on top is "pizza" to be quite a stretch.

Some of my favorite pizzas have no tomato sauce: * White clam pizza * Amici's Milano or Trentino * State of Mind's Peas on Peas on Peas (when it's in season) Why would the lack of tomato sauce make it not a pizza? (You didn't specifically mention tomato sauce, but GP did and it sounds like you are in agreement? Please forgive me if I misunderstood.)

I'm saying Bread + topping is not inherently a pizza. There are lots of other dishes that are bread + topping that we don't call pizza.

Is crostini a pizza? Is bruschetta? Is sabich? Is lahmacun? Arepas? Is an open face bagel with cream cheese?

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#46
post #21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

> Pizza predates the use of the tomato. What makes it pizza specifically at that point?

Because they called it pizza and modern pizza is a direct descendant of it.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it's spelled "Chile". (This is a pun. At least in my corner of the U.S., people typically pronounce "chili" and "Chile" the same way.)

Going off on a tangent, but still related to national cuisines, a few years ago Spanish speakers in the UK would find it hilarious how many restaurants and pubs would call their vegetarian alternative to chile con carne ... wait for it... veggie con carne . I haven't seen that term in the wild recently. I guess they eventually realised.

In the US at least it's common to refer to jus as "au jus" even in situations where the "au" doesn't make sense.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#48
The article is informative, even eye opening, but to be honest, I get wary of the iconoclastic affect that surrounds it. Truth is, I am attached to certain food traditions and would like to see them continued properly. I know culture evolves, but if anything, I want to look back, not forward, and see what past things we have been missing out on.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#49

> In her latest book …, Anya von Bremzen goes on a multi-year quest … In the process, she “crushes” bowls of noodles with a ramen otaku in Tokyo, learns to make pasta puttanesca in a former brothel in Naples, and drinks ceremonial cacao at her own wedding in Oaxaca. The primary purpose of a book like this seems to be so that the author can go on a tour around the world and write the costs off as a business expense. I…

Completely true. And the books never sell, so the losses just offset other income.

Brilliant, really.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#50

> In her latest book …, Anya von Bremzen goes on a multi-year quest … In the process, she “crushes” bowls of noodles with a ramen otaku in Tokyo, learns to make pasta puttanesca in a former brothel in Naples, and drinks ceremonial cacao at her own wedding in Oaxaca. The primary purpose of a book like this seems to be so that the author can go on a tour around the world and write the costs off as a business expense. I…

I also get the feeling that the whole thing is shoehorned for the obvious purpose of being contrarian for the obvious reason that being mainstream doesn't separate you enough from the pack to sell. So: arguing that national dish IS A REAL THING would require a much more elevated level of content and research. Claim the contrary with shallow arguments mixed with "I traveled The World to experience it myself" and easy peasy, must be true because.

Other than that, National Dish is as much a thing as National Language. Take Latin / Romance languages for instance. It's something of a trope that in the old days (before modern communication and standardization of "national language" with one dialect proclaimed "the reference" and evangelized through media), going from Rome to Paris to Madrid meant every two adjacent villages would understand each other but 100 villages away this would cease to be true. Language changed so it makes just as much sense that food recipes changed.

This is brilliantly illustrated for the Balkans region by Key & Peele's sketch "Macedonian Café": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1KiFON-GWg

There's "Ćevapi" as "national dish" of Bosnia, a country the size of a pea grain so sure, THEY invented it. In fact it's the exact same situation for Latin dialects. Go from Bosnia to Serbia to Romania and every two villages will make a ćevapi that's similar enough but 100 villages away the flavor and recipe would have changed enough to create the "Macedonian Café" situation :)

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