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Save money on wifi using user agent switching

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Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#41

Post by bryanlarsen »

wladimir wrote: post #15
patio11 wrote: post #10

Word to the wise: "circumventing the access restriction was easy to do, Your Honor, so I assumed it was OK" is not something you ever want to have to say. There exist wifi systems where setting a cookie "paid=1" will save you $15. You might think there are no legal consequences for "writing a text file on your own computer." I strongly suggest not testing that.

I don't think those cases are even comparable. Lying that you paid (through whatever means) is different from using a different user agent, which has no (direct, expected) relation to money. But if you think changing the user agent is somehow wrong, you could also go all the way of emulating the iPad browser on your laptop, and use that to sign in for the service.

You'd still have trouble explaining that to a judge. The hotel has a reasonable expectation that if the traffic says it is coming from an iPad, it's actually coming from an iPad, and you don't have any non-infringing excuses to be using an iPad browser on your laptop.

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#42

Post by joelhaasnoot »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #41
wladimir wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those cases are even comparable. Lying that you paid (through whatever means) is different from using a different user agent, which has no (direct, expected) relation to money. But if you think changing the user agent is somehow wrong, you could also go all the way of emulating the iPad browser on your laptop, and use that to sign in for the service.

You'd still have trouble explaining that to a judge. The hotel has a reasonable expectation that if the traffic says it is coming from an iPad, it's actually coming from an iPad, and you don't have any non-infringing excuses to be using an iPad browser on your laptop.

iPad simulator as an iOS/Web developer?

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#43

Post by dfc »

luca-giovanni wrote: post #37
dfc wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original sharer is not sigma cloud (the bitly link creator).[1] Ostensibly the OP actually visited the site before posting it on HN so its not like the OP was only aware of the shortened link. What's more important a consistent approach to privacy or "knowing how much interest someone's HN link received"? [1] Conspiracy theory: jcloud is an astro-turfing account for sigma cloud. The jcloud account was created 377…

My point was that the first hit on the article is on Twitter and was from CloudSigma. So I'm guessing the URL was copy pasted from there. Looking at jclouds account, submissions do generally come from CloudSigma tweets but it seems to relate generally to wider things not that company. The residual value of a URL shortening isn't clear to do to the lengths you suggest. Your post gives more advertising than the submiss…

LOL, this is the second story where you have defended sigma cloud in regards to astroturfing. A bunch of your early posts where all sigmacloud stories. Are you affiliated with sigma cloud?

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#44

Post by ktizo »

ugh wrote: post #16
luca-giovanni wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you just choose to change your user agent to something different because you prefer the experience? If you then get different offers as a result you can't be held liable.

It's plausible deniability, nothing more. Illegal stays illegal.

If there were an expensive nightclub which had a cheaper bar round the corner that only admitted people with the first name of "Dan", who then get full access to the nightclub and cheaper drinks all night, would it be criminal fraud to lie about your name to the doorstaff?

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#45

Post by DougBTX »

icebraining wrote: post #30
belphanior wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you a story. A friend of a friend runs an independent midsize hotel here in Germany. They used to offer free internet access. Then one of their guests used the connection to download copyrighted stuff. In due course a nasty letter from a lawyer arrived, demanding payment of around 1000€ and as fighting and losing would have been much more expensive, they payed. They were unable to recover the money, becau…

I'm assuming there's some kind of protection for ISPs, or it'd be impossible to run one in Germany. Couldn't they apply to the same rules, since they're effectively an ISP?

The idea of ISP protection is to say that some particular other person is responsible, instead of the ISP, so that they can get sued/fined/imprisoned instead. Looks like these guys were not tracking that.

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#46

Post by safeaim »

onli wrote: post #34
belphanior wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you a story. A friend of a friend runs an independent midsize hotel here in Germany. They used to offer free internet access. Then one of their guests used the connection to download copyrighted stuff. In due course a nasty letter from a lawyer arrived, demanding payment of around 1000€ and as fighting and losing would have been much more expensive, they payed. They were unable to recover the money, becau…

>They were unable to recover the money, because there was no way to prove which of their guests at that time was responsible. That's exactly why in all likelihood, they would've won. It's the perfect setup and - in germany - an argument for securing the wlan not better than the default-setting suggests. I am always surprised by the "there is a chance we might loose and pay more, so we will pay"-attitude that seems to…

I don't know about the current climate for copyright cases in Germany, but I don't think that the board of a hotel chain will have or want any stake in the copyright fight as that is so far from their own business interests.

By choosing to pay €1000 this month they save a lot of money.That small amount of a settlement is pocket change for a hotel compared to the lengthy legal process that may be drawn out for months, and cost them much more and be without a guaranteed win in sight.

EDIT: Forgot that the hotel was independent, but my point still stands, especially for a hotel without the insurance of being in a hotel chain.

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#47

Post by onli »

DougBTX wrote: post #45
icebraining wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming there's some kind of protection for ISPs, or it'd be impossible to run one in Germany. Couldn't they apply to the same rules, since they're effectively an ISP?

The idea of ISP protection is to say that some particular other person is responsible, instead of the ISP, so that they can get sued/fined/imprisoned instead. Looks like these guys were not tracking that.

That's simply false (in germany!). The keyword is Access-Provider. See http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__7.html and http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/providerhaftung-stoererhaftun...

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#48

Post by no-downloads »

ktizo wrote: post #44
ugh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's plausible deniability, nothing more. Illegal stays illegal.

If there were an expensive nightclub which had a cheaper bar round the corner that only admitted people with the first name of "Dan", who then get full access to the nightclub and cheaper drinks all night, would it be criminal fraud to lie about your name to the doorstaff?

As someone named Dan I feel compelled to point out that such policies are really good and absolutely fair :-)

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#49

Post by Joeri »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #41
wladimir wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those cases are even comparable. Lying that you paid (through whatever means) is different from using a different user agent, which has no (direct, expected) relation to money. But if you think changing the user agent is somehow wrong, you could also go all the way of emulating the iPad browser on your laptop, and use that to sign in for the service.

You'd still have trouble explaining that to a judge. The hotel has a reasonable expectation that if the traffic says it is coming from an iPad, it's actually coming from an iPad, and you don't have any non-infringing excuses to be using an iPad browser on your laptop.

If they advertised the plan as an ipad plan, there would be a point. But if the plan is advertised as all-purpose, but only offered to certain user agents, i don't think there's any legal issue.

Re: Save money on wifi using user agent switching

#50

Post by rjh29 »

patio11 wrote: post #10

Word to the wise: "circumventing the access restriction was easy to do, Your Honor, so I assumed it was OK" is not something you ever want to have to say. There exist wifi systems where setting a cookie "paid=1" will save you $15. You might think there are no legal consequences for "writing a text file on your own computer." I strongly suggest not testing that.

I was on a train with paid wifi and I discovered that if you went to pay via PayPal, the paywall was temporarily lifted completely and you could access any site you liked for 30 minutes or so, after which you simply needed to repeat the procedure. I wonder what the legal consequences of doing that are?
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