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AI and the Automation of Work

ben-evans.com

41–50 of 268 posts

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#41
I am pretty concerned about AGI. I love computer science and programming. I would love to get into research after I finish my Masters in a couple of years.

I think it's fair to say that _some day_ we will achieve AGI. It might not be in 10 years, or 1000, but eventually we'll get there.

When we do have AGI, what would that mean for someone like me? Would there be any reason to have programmers (or similar) at all? Would computer science research (or scientific research at all!) exist, or is that something a computer could do?

I think humans might start pursuing more creative/leisure activities, but... I like learning and working!

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The anxiety of the above has made me feel like it's not worth being ambitious. What's the point of research if some AI might do it better than me in 10-20 years? What's the point of joining a startup or... doing anything? I realize this sounds a bit absurd, but it is something that I've really feared since ChatGPT came about.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#42

> But if it becomes cheaper to use a machine to make, say, a pair of shoes, then the shoes are cheaper, more people can buy shoes and they have more money to spend on other things besides, and we discover new things we need or want, and new jobs. This sounds really similar to trickle down economics.

No, because what he described actually works.

Clothing used to be hugely expensive:

https://www.bookandsword.com/2017/12/09/how-much-did-a-shirt...

> So the shirts of humble servants at Henry VIII’s court cost between 3 and 10 days’ income. That would be similar to someone who earns 10 dollars or Euros an hour spending 240 to 800 dollars or Euros on an item today. (Of course, in the 15th and 16th century, people spent much more of their incomes on food, fuel, and clothing than they do in Europe or European settler societies today, and much less on rent, transportation, and medical care … but it seems that most people could make or obtain one or two new shirts every year or so).

https://www.bookandsword.com/2021/05/08/how-much-did-a-tunic...

> In the Edict, the simplest linen tunic could be sold for up to 500 denarii, whereas a linen weaver was to be paid 20 or 40 denarii per day plus maintenance. Fine linen tunics could be sold for up to 7,000 denarii. Elsewhere in the Edict, workers without maintenance (food and possibly fuel and shelter) earn about twice as much as those with. So a linen weaver would need to work for (500 / 2×40 to 500 / 2×20) 6 to 12 days to earn the price of the simplest linen tunic. That is not so different from the 3 to 10 days’ income for a worker to buy a shirt at the court of Henry VIII of England, considering that the ancients did not have spinning wheels. The linen tunics in 301 CE were probably woven as one rectangular or cross-shaped piece and sewed up the sides and under the arms, whereas the English shirts were cut and sewed from long pieces of cloth, but that is another story.

These days, you can buy a shirt for a much smaller amount of money, so you have more money to spend on other things, and the economy can grow. This isn't a new concept; in fact, it's so old, we tend to forget how things were before it took hold with the birth of industrialization and automation.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#43
post #6

I think the "sparks of AIG" presentations are compelling. It does feel like there are a just a few remaining big problems away from AGI level capabilities where it was more futuristic unclear projections in the past. If the issues as synthetic data conversations like alpha go but for LLMs; setting much longer token contexts (or dramatically cheaper training on custom data sets) And scaling via software and hardware a…

It utterly befuddles me that so many people still can't (or refuse to) sense what's coming. Be it bad or good the magnitude of what is now unfolding is beyond everything that homo sapiens have ever witnessed. Unless we think that MI advancement will miraculously stall and never improve beyond current capabilities, I cannot conceive of future, even a near future, that we recognize as real. >I think then we have some b…

I don't know, that's quite the romantic take. I can easily admit I don't know what's coming, but _homo sapiens have ever witnessed_... _cannot conceive of near future that we recognize as real_. Come on, lol

Imagine yourself in the movie Apocalypto and I'm using a Hollywood film on purpose here - the entire Universe of being as you see it all the sudden explodes its Universe with new Gods/demons different and more powerful _everything_ coming to kill you. And then there's the boring discovery of "we're just one planet in one solar system in one Galaxy...

LLMs gonna be orders of magnitude beyond that (in)comprehension? I mean maybe it will be more powerful and maybe it will come to kill us, but that's not an inconceivable new story line.

Funny that both of us can accuse one another of hubris.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#44

I am pretty concerned about AGI. I love computer science and programming. I would love to get into research after I finish my Masters in a couple of years. I think it's fair to say that _some day_ we will achieve AGI. It might not be in 10 years, or 1000, but eventually we'll get there. When we do have AGI, what would that mean for someone like me? Would there be any reason to have programmers (or similar) at all? Wo…

>What's the point of research if some AI might do it better than me in 10-20 years?

You said you enjoy learning and working.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#45
post #44

I am pretty concerned about AGI. I love computer science and programming. I would love to get into research after I finish my Masters in a couple of years. I think it's fair to say that _some day_ we will achieve AGI. It might not be in 10 years, or 1000, but eventually we'll get there. When we do have AGI, what would that mean for someone like me? Would there be any reason to have programmers (or similar) at all? Wo…

>What's the point of research if some AI might do it better than me in 10-20 years? You said you enjoy learning and working.

This comment is beautiful in its ring of truth.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious as to your source, or particular examples, since they (or at least GPT-4) seem to me to be rather decent at planning. E.g., for writing code.

Ask it to write a backtracking sudoku solver with coroutines and/or fibers and let me know how it performs in your language of choice. We are nowhere near generally intelligent software systems.

Ask a random college freshman in computer science to write a backtracking sudoku solver with coroutines and/or fibers in their language of choice. Oof, only 1 out of 10 can do it...? I guess 9 out of 10 college freshmen aren't generally intelligent? (I mean, I certainly wasn't very intelligent as a college freshman, but I'm pretty sure that's not the way you're using that word here).

Anyways, these kinds of strawmen always baffle me in regards to AI.

Insert random pseudo trivia that most of the general population wouldn't be able to do, see the AI fail at that specific task. "What did I tell you? The AI definitely isn't generally intelligent yet!"

Everybody is out to prove AI isn't intelligent without first defining what intelligence even is. And when other people rightly point out it can do a lot of stuff, they point to some specific task that it gets 90% of the way there but doesn't get perfect and then triumphantly declare AI isn't intelligent. Crazy.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious where GPT-4 would come up short on the problem and I was surprised -- it seemed to solve it pretty well whether or not using coroutines. (I dropped both solns into a python interpreter and both appeared to solve the problem.) There could def be bugs I missed tho. https://chat.openai.com/share/ef77507e-cb75-4112-97f1-a16cfc...

That's a good attempt but the coroutine solution is incorrect. See if you can figure out why and how to improve it. You can also ask it to propagate constraints and see what happens.

This isn't the dunk you think it is since GP is a human (I presume), and he thought the solution worked.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious where GPT-4 would come up short on the problem and I was surprised -- it seemed to solve it pretty well whether or not using coroutines. (I dropped both solns into a python interpreter and both appeared to solve the problem.) There could def be bugs I missed tho. https://chat.openai.com/share/ef77507e-cb75-4112-97f1-a16cfc...

That's a good attempt but the coroutine solution is incorrect. See if you can figure out why and how to improve it. You can also ask it to propagate constraints and see what happens.

Sigh classic LLM -- without you, the expert, I can't quickly tell from the code / output how the answer the LLM produced is wrong. I also asked it to solve sudoku by "propagating constraints" and the answer seemed to work for me :/ Again, I'd guess the soln produced is wrong because I trust you more than the LLM but I don't have the mental horsepower to figure it out without resorting to tests & debugging.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#49

I am pretty concerned about AGI. I love computer science and programming. I would love to get into research after I finish my Masters in a couple of years. I think it's fair to say that _some day_ we will achieve AGI. It might not be in 10 years, or 1000, but eventually we'll get there. When we do have AGI, what would that mean for someone like me? Would there be any reason to have programmers (or similar) at all? Wo…

The original article gets into this at the end. It's easy to get into a cyclic argument here, where you posit a tool that can do "anything" and then try to derive consequences from that. What we don't know is what its actual capabilities will be, or how transformative those will be.

There's a prayer about knowing the difference between what you can do and what you can't, and setting aside the things you can't do to focus on what you can. To me, this seems like the right way to approach this.

Re: AI and the Automation of Work

#50
It's not ChatGPT what we should be putting in our forecasts, but its successors. And, from what I have been reading, our AI folk are coming with better performers all the time by chaining multiple neural networks, "making modular brains", so to speak. Any argument that starts by saying "ChatGPT is very bad at X, humans will always do X," is flawed IMO.

So I think that any job that can be done by a non-human is up for grabs, but for the sake of the argument, let's restrict it to manual jobs where being human doesn't matter. For example, a kitchen clerk at a burger joint doesn't need to be human, as long as it does all the tasks it needs to do and doesn't put anybody in danger. A security guard at an airport can be a machine gun with wheels, it is more intimidating that way. Picking up coffee cherries from a coffee tree can be done by a machine which is smart enough.

But assume that there are jobs "high in the ladder," for amazing engineers and creatives super-charged with AI powers. The problem is that not everybody can climb that ladder. And that's a problem we are already seeing. Right now, if you are highly qualified, you have no trouble getting a decent job. But if you are not, you are fighting for 10 USD/hour shifts somewhere. Imagine if 90% of those shifts are gone. Compound that with our social media (and AIs optimizing for engagement there in) making our kids a little dumber by stealing their attention for long periods of time.

It doesn't look good.

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